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 Post subject: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:55 pm 
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It’s not pressing but....

Obviously their lyrics aren’t good, but I was wondering is it morally bad to listen to the “instrumental music” of such bands as Tool, Metallica, Pantera, etc. essentially heavy metal bands, without the lyrics to inspire me in my lifting weights, exercising?

I feel like I’m going back on my own vomit from my past life listening to this stuff but I can’t help the fact that it motivates me at the gym.

Thanks.

PS Mostly would like Fr.’s input or PED if he’s still around.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:22 pm 
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Does it help you grow in virtue? I think that's the only question that matters, and it's one you have to answer for yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:06 am 
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I've been a big fan of heavy metal music most of my life, but sadly, a lot of the lyrics do not promote virtuous growth. I also find the music to be invigorating, but resist listening to it as much as I used to. I still listen from time to time, but am more selective in my song choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:30 am 
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There is nothing morally problematic with Metallica, nor with most heavy metal or rock and roll music.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:07 am 
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Doom wrote:
There is nothing morally problematic with Metallica, nor with most heavy metal or rock and roll music.


Dude, I love heavy metal music and generally hold your opinions in high-regard. But this comment is shockingly asinine.

It would be easy, without any effort whatsoever, to provide an very long list of songs that glorify sex, drugs and general immorality. While the list would be shorter, it would still be easy to provide a list of songs that pay homage to the devil in some way - directly or indirectly.

There are songs that are not about these subjects. But to say that “most” aren’t morally problematic is, well, I’ll just say is very, and overly, optimistic thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:16 am 
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Aside from lyrics, music itself has a moral aspect. But, in general, it isn't simply "this music evil, this is good"

Music affects our emotions, reactions, etc and thus has a role in shaping our virtue, or vice, and ordering, or disordering, our reason.

Just note the huge power a soundtrack has in a movie.

To always or frequently listen to music that excites say anger, forms vice. But sometimes anger isn't wrong. A movie that displays something that we should feel angry at, uses music to move us accordingly and this can form virtue. But say what is depicted is unjust, and the music moves us to feel anger at what we ought not to... That is vicious.

I use the example of movies because it is more readily apparent.

One ought to listen to music that is ordered. And music that moves the passions should be listened to with restraint, and only as appropriate.

I am not saying one should only enjoy Mozart... There is a place for true folk music, for music that heighten conviviality, etc (I am far from convinced that any modern pop music has real value, or would be any loss if it was extirpated ... But I listen, on occasion, to classic rock and oldies... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity)

If you are concerned how X music is morally, try this. Consciously abstain from it... Try for a period of time to listen to music that is more ordered to reason (e.g Mozart) or at least music that does not aim at rousing anger, wildness, etc. If you see benefit, in mood, attitude, etc maybe reserve it in the future to less frequent enjoyment

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:50 pm 
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Strider wrote:
I feel like I’m going back on my own vomit from my past life listening to this stuff but I can’t help the fact that it motivates me at the gym.

I think this is the most important thing in your post. If you have specific associations with this music, it may be more important for you to avoid it than it would be for another person to do so. I almost wholly avoid music from my misspent youth, not necessarily because there's something intrinsically wrong with it (though I agree with PED and Father) but because it is tied in for me with lots of stuff I don't want to dwell on.

There may well be music that could be just as motivating but that isn't heavy metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHMq2D9rtSc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJJW0dE5GF0 (aria starts at about 1:45)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP5U6SW_08

This one is different...slow and restrained. But the trumpet solo that basically makes up the second half is sooo restrained that it burns. Kills me. I don't know for sure but I reckon it could be motivating for physical stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfsmmk93H3I

Anyway, just some quick thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Piggybacking on these responses leads me to this comment and final question...

I actually try to go to the gym everyday to teach myself or develop the virtues of natural consistency and fortitude, two virtues I am absolutely sure that I lack. I know that it could be said that these virtues could be practiced in other ways and that is true, but I personally know this physical training helps me in this area. Additionally it helps me to think more clearly throughout the day, and trains my will and mind to push through pain.

Bear with me...

So if my intentions in listening to this “instrumental” heavy metal music without lyrics invigorates me and assists me in pushing through pain while exercising, lifting weights, in order to develop the virtue of fortitude with the end of health in mind, and if I can tune out my past (referencing Gherkins post) while listening to it, perhaps it would be a good thing?


Last edited by Strider on Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:27 pm 
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Who is this "Gherkin" of whom you speak? "gherkin" I know about.

The answer doesn't change. You can't use an immoral means to a moral end. If the music is harmful to you (and I can't determine that), it doesn't matter that it helps you to do something good.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Who is this "Gherkin" of whom you speak? "gherkin" I know about.

The answer doesn't change. You can't use an immoral means to a moral end. If the music is harmful to you (and I can't determine that), it doesn't matter that it helps you to do something good.


I see what you’re saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:42 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Aside from lyrics, music itself has a moral aspect. But, in general, it isn't simply "this music evil, this is good"

Music affects our emotions, reactions, etc and thus has a role in shaping our virtue, or vice, and ordering, or disordering, our reason.

Just note the huge power a soundtrack has in a movie.

To always or frequently listen to music that excites say anger, forms vice. But sometimes anger isn't wrong. A movie that displays something that we should feel angry at, uses music to move us accordingly and this can form virtue. But say what is depicted is unjust, and the music moves us to feel anger at what we ought not to... That is vicious.

I use the example of movies because it is more readily apparent.

One ought to listen to music that is ordered. And music that moves the passions should be listened to with restraint, and only as appropriate.

I am not saying one should only enjoy Mozart... There is a place for true folk music, for music that heighten conviviality, etc (I am far from convinced that any modern pop music has real value, or would be any loss if it was extirpated ... But I listen, on occasion, to classic rock and oldies... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity)

If you are concerned how X music is morally, try this. Consciously abstain from it... Try for a period of time to listen to music that is more ordered to reason (e.g Mozart) or at least music that does not aim at rousing anger, wildness, etc. If you see benefit, in mood, attitude, etc maybe reserve it in the future to less frequent enjoyment

I don’t disagree with Peeteem and what he has said about Metallica’s lyrics (about which I know nothing) but PED most of what you have said is confusing morality with your own personal tastes based on the way you were brought up.

There is absolutely nothing immoral about listening to pop music, apart from maybe a few exceptions of songs with unsavoury lyrics, there is no question of it being sinful to enjoy pop music. It doesn’t “move the passions” in any sinful way any more than going outside and being with other people (some of whom may be very attractive, or very annoying”, etc) might “move the passions”.

If you prefer “ordered music”, that’s fine, you’re entitled to your personal preference, but that’s all it is, your personal preference, it has nothing to do with morality, there is nothing immoral in enjoying music that isn’t “ordered”. Pop music may not have “real value” for you, but it has for many people in many ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Aside from lyrics, music itself has a moral aspect. But, in general, it isn't simply "this music evil, this is good"

Music affects our emotions, reactions, etc and thus has a role in shaping our virtue, or vice, and ordering, or disordering, our reason.

Just note the huge power a soundtrack has in a movie.

To always or frequently listen to music that excites say anger, forms vice. But sometimes anger isn't wrong. A movie that displays something that we should feel angry at, uses music to move us accordingly and this can form virtue. But say what is depicted is unjust, and the music moves us to feel anger at what we ought not to... That is vicious.

I use the example of movies because it is more readily apparent.

One ought to listen to music that is ordered. And music that moves the passions should be listened to with restraint, and only as appropriate.

I am not saying one should only enjoy Mozart... There is a place for true folk music, for music that heighten conviviality, etc (I am far from convinced that any modern pop music has real value, or would be any loss if it was extirpated ... But I listen, on occasion, to classic rock and oldies... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity)

If you are concerned how X music is morally, try this. Consciously abstain from it... Try for a period of time to listen to music that is more ordered to reason (e.g Mozart) or at least music that does not aim at rousing anger, wildness, etc. If you see benefit, in mood, attitude, etc maybe reserve it in the future to less frequent enjoyment

I don’t disagree with Peeteem and what he has said about Metallica’s lyrics (about which I know nothing) but PED most of what you have said is confusing morality with your own personal tastes based on the way you were brought up.

There is absolutely nothing immoral about listening to pop music, apart from maybe a few exceptions of songs with unsavoury lyrics, there is no question of it being sinful to enjoy pop music. It doesn’t “move the passions” in any sinful way any more than going outside and being with other people (some of whom may be very attractive, or very annoying”, etc) might “move the passions”.

If you prefer “ordered music”, that’s fine, you’re entitled to your personal preference, but that’s all it is, your personal preference, it has nothing to do with morality, there is nothing immoral in enjoying music that isn’t “ordered”. Pop music may not have “real value” for you, but it has for many people in many ways.

I must conclude that either you lack reading comprehension or don't care to read well. You entire response is an exercise is nonsense.

1. You attribute to me something I didn't say. That is dishonest
2. You beg the question on principles
3. You gratuitously assert your own myopic and sentimentalist views

And frankly, you know nothing about what I was raised with, so you are also guilty of rash judgment... And are so far from reality in your assumption that I seriously think you are unable to communicate honestly.

Read what I wrote again if you wish to have an actual discussion. Otherwise, you only make yourself foolish

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Tldr, if you are going to pontificate, at least make an attempt to do so intelligently

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:21 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Aside from lyrics, music itself has a moral aspect. But, in general, it isn't simply "this music evil, this is good"

Music affects our emotions, reactions, etc and thus has a role in shaping our virtue, or vice, and ordering, or disordering, our reason.

Just note the huge power a soundtrack has in a movie.

To always or frequently listen to music that excites say anger, forms vice. But sometimes anger isn't wrong. A movie that displays something that we should feel angry at, uses music to move us accordingly and this can form virtue. But say what is depicted is unjust, and the music moves us to feel anger at what we ought not to... That is vicious.

I use the example of movies because it is more readily apparent.

One ought to listen to music that is ordered. And music that moves the passions should be listened to with restraint, and only as appropriate.

I am not saying one should only enjoy Mozart... There is a place for true folk music, for music that heighten conviviality, etc (I am far from convinced that any modern pop music has real value, or would be any loss if it was extirpated ... But I listen, on occasion, to classic rock and oldies... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity)

If you are concerned how X music is morally, try this. Consciously abstain from it... Try for a period of time to listen to music that is more ordered to reason (e.g Mozart) or at least music that does not aim at rousing anger, wildness, etc. If you see benefit, in mood, attitude, etc maybe reserve it in the future to less frequent enjoyment

I don’t disagree with Peeteem and what he has said about Metallica’s lyrics (about which I know nothing) but PED most of what you have said is confusing morality with your own personal tastes based on the way you were brought up.

There is absolutely nothing immoral about listening to pop music, apart from maybe a few exceptions of songs with unsavoury lyrics, there is no question of it being sinful to enjoy pop music. It doesn’t “move the passions” in any sinful way any more than going outside and being with other people (some of whom may be very attractive, or very annoying”, etc) might “move the passions”.

If you prefer “ordered music”, that’s fine, you’re entitled to your personal preference, but that’s all it is, your personal preference, it has nothing to do with morality, there is nothing immoral in enjoying music that isn’t “ordered”. Pop music may not have “real value” for you, but it has for many people in many ways.

I must conclude that either you lack reading comprehension or don't care to read well. You entire response is an exercise is nonsense.

1. You attribute to me something I didn't say. That is dishonest
2. You beg the question on principles
3. You gratuitously assert your own myopic and sentimentalist views

And frankly, you know nothing about what I was raised with, so you are also guilty of rash judgment... And are so far from reality in your assumption that I seriously think you are unable to communicate honestly.

Read what I wrote again if you wish to have an actual discussion. Otherwise, you only make yourself foolish

I didn’t say you’re a bad person, PED, I just pointed out that you are confusing your own personal preferences with morality. I’m not attributing to you something you didn’t say, I’m not being “dishonest”, I’m talking about what you actually said when you said this:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
One ought to listen to music that is ordered. And music that moves the passions should be listened to with restraint, and only as appropriate.

I am not saying one should only enjoy Mozart... There is a place for true folk music, for music that heighten conviviality, etc (I am far from convinced that any modern pop music has real value, or would be any loss if it was extirpated ... But I listen, on occasion, to classic rock and oldies... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity)

If you are concerned how X music is morally, try this. Consciously abstain from it... Try for a period of time to listen to music that is more ordered to reason (e.g Mozart) or at least music that does not aim at rousing anger, wildness, etc. If you see benefit, in mood, attitude, etc maybe reserve it in the future to less frequent enjoyment

I haven’t made that up. You said it. The thread is entitled “Quick Moral Question on Music” but none of what you suggest one ‘ought’ to do or ‘should’ do - or what music you think there is ‘a place for’ or may or may not be ‘sinful’, or what music one could try rationing if “you are concerned how X music is morally” - has got absolutely nothing to do with morality, it’s just about your own personal tastes in music.

Whether you prefer to listen to Mozart or Daft Punk makes no difference to anyone’s morality. Mafia godfathers may very well listen to Mozart and it won’t morally improve them in any way, and the most conscientious charitable people you could meet may very well listen to all kinds of wild and wonderful pop and rock and it won’t do them any moral harm whatsoever.

If you start to say you ‘should’ listen to this type of music and ‘ought’ not to listen to that kind of music, you’re going to make people think that morality has got something to do with not enjoying what you know you like, which is a very false view of morality, which will make some people say “to hell with morality if it means my life has to be boring” and will make other people become too scrupulous. I know the Catholic Church does not teach that we cannot enjoy ourselves, so no one should put unnecessary barriers in the way of enjoying ourselves. Enjoying life is good for our mental health, and that includes enjoying music, which can be all kinds of music.

When you say:
“I listen, on occasion, to classic rock and oldies... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity”,
that to me is as daft as saying:
“I look, on occasion, at daffodils and sunflowers ... I don't think I sin in doing so, but I recognize it is a frivolity”.
Of course you don’t “sin” in doing so! Why would you even put the word “sin” in the same sentence?! The music you enjoy has nothing to do with sin or morality unless you are deliberately seeking out music with very dubious extreme lyrics, in which case the problem is the lyrics not the music.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:42 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I just pointed out that you are confusing your own personal preferences with morality.

You don't know him, so you don't know what his personal preferences are or how he was raised. You can't "just point out" something about someone's personal preferences of which you have no knowledge.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:10 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I just pointed out that you are confusing your own personal preferences with morality.

You don't know him, so you don't know what his personal preferences are or how he was raised. You can't "just point out" something about someone's personal preferences of which you have no knowledge.

Not to mention I made it very clear that I was not saying this or that music is intrinsically evil. I honestly can't see how someone could so seriously misrepresent what I wrote. The strawmen involved seems unreal

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:16 am 
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gherkin wrote:
There may well be music that could be just as motivating but that isn't heavy metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP5U6SW_08

You get bonus points for posting a link to Alison Krauss!

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
gherkin wrote:
There may well be music that could be just as motivating but that isn't heavy metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP5U6SW_08

You get bonus points for posting a link to Alison Krauss!

I made it four notes and had to cut it off. No thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:40 pm 
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Banned for not liking Alison Krauss.

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 Post subject: Re: Quick Moral Question on Music
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:12 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Riverboat wrote:
gherkin wrote:
There may well be music that could be just as motivating but that isn't heavy metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP5U6SW_08

You get bonus points for posting a link to Alison Krauss!

I made it four notes and had to cut it off. No thanks.

:scratch:

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