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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:25 pm 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I think marc could insist that Baptism is not necessary by using the same loose and liberal definition of ‘necessary’ that you are using Gandalf!


And you'd still be wrong in your thinking.

The problem isn't with me supposedly using the word "necessary" loosly.

Your problem, as I'm seeing it, is that you're taking an absolutist position on Baptism as it being *only* affected through the act of performing the Sacrament. An assumption and a premise that is in fact incorrect. There are also the baptism by desire and baptism by blood(martyrdom).

So it is through a strawman fallacy that you're inventing a "contradiction" where one doesn't actually exist as some sort of "gotcha" question. It's not sophisticated, it's silly and childishly simplistic and you should know better.

It's irrelevant as to how you define Baptism - whether you define it to include Baptism by desire and Baptism by blood, or not - it's still a contradiction to say or believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously say or believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:05 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


So, JM3, you think CCC 1261 does NOT say that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.


These are your words. They are not in CCC 1261.

As I said on page 8 (which you keep ignoring), I can hope that you will understand. That doesn't mean you will.

CCC 1261 says, "allow us to hope".

What part of 'hope' don't you understand?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:05 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
It's irrelevant as to how you define Baptism - whether you define it to include Baptism by desire and Baptism by blood, or not - it's still a contradiction to say or believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously say or believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


Except that's not what the Catechism is saying. That's how you in your obtuse and pedantic way are interpreting it and trying to force it to say. You're trying to impose something onto the text that doesn't actually exist.

There is no one who will be in heaven that will not have been Baptized into Christ, period.

We are objectively bound by the obedience of Faith that once we receive the Gospel and know of the necessity we must submit ourselves to the Sacrament.

Christ, who is the Eternal High Priest of the New Covenant, the ultimate mediator of Grace, and who affects all Baptisms, can Baptize whomever He wills, however He wills, and whenever He wills. Death is not an obstacle to God achieving His will. The Resurrection clearly demonstrated this fact.

Him who ordained that His own mother be Immaculately Conceived can Himself Baptize children who have died before receiving a Sacramental Baptism.

It's the difference between what is objectively necessary and how that objective necessity is subjectively applied.

If you'd get off your absolutist horse and trying to stubbornly confirm your bias to look at it from a different angle this should be plain for you to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:28 pm 
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You guys are both making this way more complicated than necessary.

1257 does not make an unequivocal statement that baptism with water is necessary; in fact, it says it isn't, or at least may not be: "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament." This paragraph does not speak of the salvation of those to whom the Gospel has not been proclaimed or who have not had the possibility of asking for it.

1258-1260 deal with some of those who fall into the exceptions listed above, where the Church has a very longstanding concept of how they may attain salvation.

1261 is speculative since the Church does not have any longstanding answer to the question.

No contradictions are involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:03 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Its kind of amazing that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that clear contradiction in the months and years during which the text was prepared. And yet it can be picked up on in a matter of seconds by DD! After all, it's obvious.

Instead of that appeal to authority, how about looking at the logic?

It is not an appeal to authority, it is an appeal to basic intellectual humility on your part. You leap to the conclusion that something you can see, in an instant, to be an obvious contradiction has simply gotten by all the people who produced the CCC, as well as all the various people who have amended it in the years since it was first published, as well as the people here who are citing it. It is, of course, just barely possible that you are right to make such a leap. But a person who has a little bit of self awareness would not make that leap. She would think--I must be missing something. And you are.

Here is what you are missing. You are missing the fact that the first statement in your little grouping of four is being explained in the words, sentences and paragraphs that follow. They are not contradicting it, they are telling you more about what it means. I haven't read the whole thread as it has unfolded over the last couple of days, but it looks like that is basically Father's point in the post immediately prior to this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:53 pm 
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Banned for quasi-agreeing with me.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:29 pm 
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Let me take another shot at clarifying. Baptism, understood as washing with water accompanied by appropriate words, is necessary, but not absolutely necessary; in other words, the statement that "Baptism is necessary for salvation," is true in some circumstances but not in others. The mistake I see being made in this thread, by partisans on both sides, is making it into an absolute. What is always absolutely necessary is the remission of Original Sin and the infusion of sanctifying grace; in situations where a person knows what baptism does and is in a position to receive it, it is necessary to do so.

The other paragraphs are discussing other situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:05 pm 
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I more than quasi-agree with you, Obi. All I said was:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.
and then I defended exactly what I said, nothing more.

But I got accused of and attacked for all sorts of things.

I didn't say that CCC 1261 contradicts CCC 1257, I said that CCC 1261 contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257, which it does.

And yes, gherkin, if you read all of CCC 1257, there is no contradiction, but that doesn't mean that it's well written. I think it's badly written. It's not a theological point, it's just about how it is written. Gherkin, you reacted as if I was challenging an impeccably-written infallible document. It's not perfect. I was googling and discovered that the Catholic Catechism for young people, 'YouCat', has had a lot of complaints about how badly written it is. So if that Catholic catechism has many badly written sentences, it's not as impossible as you seem to think, gherkin, that I could possibly notice one badly-written sentence or paragraph in the CCC.

I've been tempted to look back in the archives of these forums to find something that Obi has said years ago so that I could copy and paste and post it in this forum as if the words are mine, just to see how many people here would immediately disagree with 'me' and maybe even attack me personally for what 'I' have said! All that stopped me is the possibility that it might be a banning offence!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:23 pm 
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No, it doesn't. It only seems to because you keep reading it as an absolute requirement. Drop that misreading and the "contradiction" goes away.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:24 pm 
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nm. This is not my day!

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:24 pm 
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Nm

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:19 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
And yes, gherkin, if you read all of CCC 1257, there is no contradiction, but that doesn't mean that it's well written. I think it's badly written. It's not a theological point, it's just about how it is written. Gherkin, you reacted as if I was challenging an impeccably-written infallible document. It's not perfect. I was googling and discovered that the Catholic Catechism for young people, 'YouCat', has had a lot of complaints about how badly written it is. So if that Catholic catechism has many badly written sentences, it's not as impossible as you seem to think, gherkin, that I could possibly notice one badly-written sentence or paragraph in the CCC.

:roll: As it happens, I think the CCC is a pretty poor piece of work. :fyi:

But that's not really relevant. Until you decide to delete your posts in this thread, you're not going to get very far in your attempt to now claim this has all been just a stylistic observation. :laughhard Seriously, that's funny. How dumb do you think we are?

FYI, here's your last post in reply to me:

Quote:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states:
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Here are four statements based on those two quotes from the catechism. I am confident that all four statements are correct. If you think any of them are incorrect, tell me which one(s). (I trust that there will be no gaslighting!)

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

So are all those four statements correct? If not, how are any of the four of them incorrect?

It’s clear to me that you can rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation,
and you can rationally believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation,
but you cannot rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


Hey, thanks for the warning about gaslighting! :laughhard

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:02 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
And yes, gherkin, if you read all of CCC 1257, there is no contradiction, but that doesn't mean that it's well written. I think it's badly written. It's not a theological point, it's just about how it is written. Gherkin, you reacted as if I was challenging an impeccably-written infallible document. It's not perfect. I was googling and discovered that the Catholic Catechism for young people, 'YouCat', has had a lot of complaints about how badly written it is. So if that Catholic catechism has many badly written sentences, it's not as impossible as you seem to think, gherkin, that I could possibly notice one badly-written sentence or paragraph in the CCC.

:roll: As it happens, I think the CCC is a pretty poor piece of work. :fyi:

But that's not really relevant. Until you decide to delete your posts in this thread, you're not going to get very far in your attempt to now claim this has all been just a stylistic observation. :laughhard Seriously, that's funny. How dumb do you think we are?

FYI, here's your last post in reply to me:

Quote:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states:
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Here are four statements based on those two quotes from the catechism. I am confident that all four statements are correct. If you think any of them are incorrect, tell me which one(s). (I trust that there will be no gaslighting!)

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

So are all those four statements correct? If not, how are any of the four of them incorrect?

It’s clear to me that you can rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation,
and you can rationally believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation,
but you cannot rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


Hey, thanks for the warning about gaslighting! :laughhard

That's exactly what I said, and what I said I said. It's entirely correct. You cannot point out anything in it that's not correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:30 am 
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Denise in this thread reminds me of Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy.

https://youtu.be/iLttd33j-GQ

There, I said it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:00 am 
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gherkin wrote:
...your attempt to now claim this has all been just a stylistic observation.

I didn't say it was "just a stylistic observation", I said it's clearly a contradiction and therefore badly written. Something that is badly written is more than mere stylistic differences. Something can be written badly in any style.

Honestly I don't understand why you can't acknowledge that it's a contradiction to say that something is necessary - with a full stop at the end of the sentence - and then say that it may not be necessary. It's either one or the other, it can't be both.

If Catholics who represent the Catholic Church use words so poorly, then the true meaning of Catholic teachings can become less clear. If "necessary" is used to mean "necessary but maybe not really necessary", then when Catholic teachers say "If you are in a relationship, to avoid living in sin it is necessary to be married before getting into a sexual relationship", it's then much easier for any liberal-minded couple to interpret the word "necessary" to mean "yeah, necessary but maybe not really necessary in all circumstances, maybe not in our particular circumstances". What's wrong with that interpretation if necessary doesn't really mean necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:20 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Its kind of amazing that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that clear contradiction in the months and years during which the text was prepared. And yet it can be picked up on in a matter of seconds by DD! After all, it's obvious.

gherkin wrote:
As it happens, I think the CCC is a pretty poor piece of work. :fyi:

It's kind of amazing, isn't it gherkin, that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that it's "a pretty poor piece of work" in the months and years during which the text was prepared. But it's so obvious to you, gherkin!

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:03 am 
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Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Christian Doctrine:

p. 156: Baptism by water is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
Idem: In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood.

Rev. Joseph Pohle, Ph.D., D.D., trans. and ed. Arthur Preuss, The Sacraments, Vol 1.:

p. 238: Thesis I: Baptism is necessary for salvation.
p. 243: Thesis II: In adults the place of Baptism by water can be supplied in case of urgent necessity by so-called Baptism of Desire.
p. 248: Thesis III: Martyrdom can also supply the place of Baptism.

Pohle-Preuss go on to say on p. 238:

    Since Baptism is necessary for infants no less than for adults, it follows that all men need it as a means of salvation, and that for adults it is also a necessity of precept. However, since the Baptism of water may sometimes be supplied by the Baptism of desire or the Baptism of blood, Baptism of water is not absolutely necessary as a means of salvation but in a merely hypothetical way.

Can we stop playing games now?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:32 pm 
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Stupid question. Why may not an unborn child be baptized? Recognizing the obvious physical barrier, on what level does it matter that the water cannot touch the child by mere inches? The sin isn't physical filth washed away. And are you not doing what the church intends even if baptizing a child in the womb?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:35 pm 
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The water has to touch some portion of the body of the person being baptized. Otherwise the symbol of washing is not enacted.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:39 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Honestly I don't understand why you can't acknowledge that it's a contradiction to say that something is necessary - with a full stop at the end of the sentence - and then say that it may not be necessary. It's either one or the other, it can't be both.

I honestly don't know why you can't acknowledge that some ideas have to be conveyed over the course of more than one sentence and that any competent reader would recognize that the "full stop" at the end of a sentence isn't necessarily the end of an atomic idea that has been fully expressed.

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