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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:29 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


I don't think that you understand just what a contradiction actually is.

Especially given the last sentence of paragraph 1257:
"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Of course I understand what a contradiction is, but Gandalf you obviously don't understand what a first sentence is! Here's what I said, with the part you don't understand highlighted:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


CCC 1261 does not contradict the last sentence of CCC 1257, but they both contradict the first sentence of 1257.


For starters, saying that something is necessary, and that it can be affected by various means is not a contradiction.

That's like saying that a raised and glorified Jesus walking through a wall is a "contradiction".

It's not. What would be a contradiction would be for a glorified Jesus to walk through a wall and at the exact same time Not walk through that exact same wall.

Contradictions are themselves inherently nonsensical (e.g. "Nothing is true.") The phrase cancels itself out on a fundamental level. If "nothing is true" then the phrase itself as a statement regarding the nature of truth is meaningless. It commits intellectual suicide by canceling itself out.

Apparent contradictions are only such on a superficial level yet are not actual contradictions once the appropriate distinctions are applied(e.g. the idea that love and hate are "contradictory" is confounded by the fact that they can both be directed at the same person at the same time, which suggests that they're not contradictory at all.)



Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation doesn't say anything about how or when the effects of baptism can and will be applied by Christ. Christ can objectively apply the effects of Baptism to whomever He pleases and whenever He pleases, even apart from the performing of the Sacrament itself by the Church.

Children who have died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism yet who will be found in beatitude can rightly be said to still have been baptized, just as any Hindu, or Buddhist, or even atheist who will be found in beatitude can be said to have received the same Sacrament that anyone in the Church has received.

So you're just woefully mistaken in your misconstruing of the text.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:17 pm 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


I don't think that you understand just what a contradiction actually is.

Especially given the last sentence of paragraph 1257:
"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Of course I understand what a contradiction is, but Gandalf you obviously don't understand what a first sentence is! Here's what I said, with the part you don't understand highlighted:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


CCC 1261 does not contradict the last sentence of CCC 1257, but they both contradict the first sentence of 1257.


For starters, saying that something is necessary, and that it can be affected by various means is not a contradiction.

That's like saying that a raised and glorified Jesus walking through a wall is a "contradiction".

It's not. What would be a contradiction would be for a glorified Jesus to walk through a wall and at the exact same time Not walk through that exact same wall.

Contradictions are themselves inherently nonsensical (e.g. "Nothing is true.") The phrase cancels itself out on a fundamental level. If "nothing is true" then the phrase itself as a statement regarding the nature of truth is meaningless. It commits intellectual suicide by canceling itself out.

Apparent contradictions are only such on a superficial level yet are not actual contradictions once the appropriate distinctions are applied(e.g. the idea that love and hate are "contradictory" is confounded by the fact that they can both be directed at the same person at the same time, which suggests that they're not contradictory at all.)



Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation doesn't say anything about how or when the effects of baptism can and will be applied by Christ. Christ can objectively apply the effects of Baptism to whomever He pleases and whenever He pleases, even apart from the performing of the Sacrament itself by the Church.

Children who have died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism yet who will be found in beatitude can rightly be said to still have been baptized, just as any Hindu, or Buddhist, or even atheist who will be found in beatitude can be said to have received the same Sacrament that anyone in the Church has received.

So you're just woefully mistaken in your misconstruing of the text.


Gandalf the Grey wrote:
marc wrote:
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace.


Wow, you just contradicted yourself in one sentence. You say that "Baptism is not necessary for salvation."

Then you say, "It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace."

If baptism is the "seal into the covenant of grace"(which it is), then how can you insist that it is not necessary?

I think marc could insist that Baptism is not necessary by using the same loose and liberal definition of ‘necessary’ that you are using Gandalf!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:13 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Would it be a sin for a rape victim, made pregnant against her will, to pray to have a miscarriage?


No, it would not be a sin. Sin would come in forcing our will, whether consciously or unconsciously, upon God.
Reference Jesus' prayer, in the garden, not to be scourged and crucified.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:16 pm 
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Doom wrote:
It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to desire the death of another human being.


Was Our Lady wrong, when she desired the death of her son?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:30 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to desire the death of another human being.


Was Our Lady wrong, when she desired the death of her son?

What is your source for the claim that she desired it?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:36 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
JM3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to desire the death of another human being.


Was Our Lady wrong, when she desired the death of her son?

What is your source for the claim that she desired it?

I'm glad you asked, because I was about to have to.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:07 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Its kind of amazing that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that clear contradiction in the months and years during which the text was prepared. And yet it can be picked up on in a matter of seconds by DD! After all, it's obvious.

Instead of that appeal to authority, how about looking at the logic?

First sentence of CCC 1257 states:
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Here are four statements based on those two quotes from the catechism. I am confident that all four statements are correct. If you think any of them are incorrect, tell me which one(s). (I trust that there will be no gaslighting!)

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

So are all those four statements correct? If not, how are any of the four of them incorrect?

It’s clear to me that you can rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation,
and you can rationally believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation,
but you cannot rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:14 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
JM3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to desire the death of another human being.


Was Our Lady wrong, when she desired the death of her son?

What is your source for the claim that she desired it?

I'm glad you asked, because I was about to have to.

Mary did conform herself extremely well to the will of God, and in that sense she accepts it. She would already know from the Old Testament that her son was to suffer. But this is distinct from the "I want him dead" line of thinking that Doom is speaking of.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If baptism is not necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, why is baptism necessary for infants?

At the very least, Baptism is necessary for those who are able to receive it. It is the ordinary means by which Original Sin is removed and the life of grace is given.

t.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:27 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If baptism is not necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, why is baptism necessary for infants?

At the very least, Baptism is necessary for those who are able to receive it. It is the ordinary means by which Original Sin is removed and the life of grace is given.

t.

So which of my four logical statements is incorrect, Jack3?

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:42 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
JM3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to desire the death of another human being.


Was Our Lady wrong, when she desired the death of her son?

What is your source for the claim that she desired it?
.

The Glories of Mary, pages 54-56.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:44 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If baptism is not necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, why is baptism necessary for infants?

At the very least, Baptism is necessary for those who are able to receive it. It is the ordinary means by which Original Sin is removed and the life of grace is given.

t.

So which of my four logical statements is incorrect, Jack3?

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.


An exception to the rule does not invalidate the rule. Therefore, your logic is suspect.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:19 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
The Glories of Mary, pages 54-56.

That says that she consented to it, not that she desired it.

In any case, I don't think the case of Our Lady at the crucifixion is parallel to the situation of the mother of a yet-to-be-born child.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:56 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
JM3 wrote:
The Glories of Mary, pages 54-56.

That says that she consented to it, not that she desired it.

In any case, I don't think the case of Our Lady at the crucifixion is parallel to the situation of the mother of a yet-to-be-born child.


I agree that there is no parallel. I didn't mean to imply one. I was only addressing Doom's blanket statement.

"that if executioners had been wanting, as St. Anselm and St. Antoninus tell us, she herself would have crucified him in obedience to the will of the Father, who had decreed he should die for our salvation."

Doesn't this mean that she desired the death of her Son because of her desire for the will of the Father?

Or is that too much of a stretch?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:07 pm 
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I don't think Doom's original statement is correct anyhow, but you make an interesting point.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't think Doom's original statement is correct anyhow, but you make an interesting point.

I don't think that even Doom thinks Doom's original statement is correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:45 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If baptism is not necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, why is baptism necessary for infants?

At the very least, Baptism is necessary for those who are able to receive it. It is the ordinary means by which Original Sin is removed and the life of grace is given.

t.

So which of my four logical statements is incorrect, Jack3?

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.


An exception to the rule does not invalidate the rule. Therefore, your logic is suspect.

An exception to a rule contradicts the rule, otherwise it wouldn't be an exception to the rule. So you cannot argue that there is no contradiction because there can be exceptions. That's the same as arguing that there
is no contradiction because there can be contradictions.

The fact that there can be an exception to a rule which "does not invalidate the rule" doesn't change the fact that it's a contradiction to believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation. You can believe either one or the other, you cannot rationally believe both.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:05 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Instead of that appeal to authority, how about looking at the logic?

First sentence of CCC 1257 states:
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Here are four statements based on those two quotes from the catechism. I am confident that all four statements are correct. If you think any of them are incorrect, tell me which one(s). (I trust that there will be no gaslighting!)

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

So are all those four statements correct? If not, how are any of the four of them incorrect?

It’s clear to me that you can rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation,
and you can rationally believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation,
but you cannot rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


Statement 1 is correct

Statement 2 is not correct.
CCC 1261 does not say this, as I told you on page 8.

Since statement 3 and 4 are based on statement 2, they are also not correct.


(I need a break from your gymnastics)


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:00 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I think marc could insist that Baptism is not necessary by using the same loose and liberal definition of ‘necessary’ that you are using Gandalf!


And you'd still be wrong in your thinking.

The problem isn't with me supposedly using the word "necessary" loosly.

Your problem, as I'm seeing it, is that you're taking an absolutist position on Baptism as it being *only* affected through the act of performing the Sacrament. An assumption and a premise that is in fact incorrect. There are also the baptism by desire and baptism by blood(martyrdom).

So it is through a strawman fallacy that you're inventing a "contradiction" where one doesn't actually exist as some sort of "gotcha" question. It's not sophisticated, it's silly and childishly simplistic and you should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:09 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Instead of that appeal to authority, how about looking at the logic?

First sentence of CCC 1257 states:
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Here are four statements based on those two quotes from the catechism. I am confident that all four statements are correct. If you think any of them are incorrect, tell me which one(s). (I trust that there will be no gaslighting!)

Statement 1:
First sentence of CCC 1257 states that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Statement 2:
CCC 1261 says that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Statement 3:
If there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism, then logically that means Baptism may not be necessary for salvation, because there may be a way of salvation without Baptism.

Statement 4:
To say that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257 which says that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

So are all those four statements correct? If not, how are any of the four of them incorrect?

It’s clear to me that you can rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation,
and you can rationally believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation,
but you cannot rationally believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and simultaneously believe that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.


Statement 1 is correct

Statement 2 is not correct.
CCC 1261 does not say this, as I told you on page 8.

Since statement 3 and 4 are based on statement 2, they are also not correct.


(I need a break from your gymnastics)

CCC 1261 states:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


So, JM3, you think CCC 1261 does NOT say that there may be a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Does anyone agree with JM3's interpretation of CCC 1261?


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