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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:48 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Its kind of amazing that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that clear contradiction in the months and years during which the text was prepared. And yet it can be picked up on in a matter of seconds by DD! After all, it's obvious.

gherkin wrote:
As it happens, I think the CCC is a pretty poor piece of work. :fyi:

It's kind of amazing, isn't it gherkin, that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that it's "a pretty poor piece of work" in the months and years during which the text was prepared. But it's so obvious to you, gherkin!

:roll:

They wrote it just as they wanted to. I don't like their approach. Completely different. But if you cared about truth I wouldn't have to explain that to you. Jump on an apparent problem and run with it, sophist. It's all you've got.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:20 pm 
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The water has to touch some portion of the body of the person being baptized. Otherwise the symbol of washing is not enacted.

Source? That answer feels like a good general rule, is, fitting, but not essential. Makes me think of David and the Showbread.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:49 pm 
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What's symbolized when you pour water on the mother is washing the mother.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:58 pm 
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A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace. But sacraments don't give grace randomly. They convey the grace they signify. So their mode of signification is essential. Thus, the grace is conveyed to the baby through the water applied to the baby. As Father said--not that I agree with him--pouring water near the baby doesn't signify the washing of the baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:12 pm 
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I asked for a source, not a clever argument from fittingness. Clever theologians can make clever arguments for fittingness either way. The placementa is an organ of the child. It would take but the slightest needle through the cervix during a routine examination to deposit of drop of water of the placenta of the child. Therefore, you've touched an organ of the child, which is to say, the child. Or you have to do an openheart surgery on the child in utero. While you're there, you put a drop of (sterilized) water on the child. Or you decide that you have the money to surgically open the mother of a child who is likely to die during the pregnancy and have it so baptized. You close her back up and leave the child there.

In all these cases, you meet the legal definition of "baptism." Water has touched the physical child. All are matters of technology, which is to say, matters of money. Is it really so fitting for the sacraments to be available only to the rich? I think Jesus might have something to say about that. Or do we recognize that, while on a metaphysical analysis, the mother is obviously distinct from the child, yet in practice, the child is fully physically dependent on the mother. And therefore we can signify the washing of the child actually by the washing of the womb, all the more sense, in Peter's own words, baptism is not the mere washing away of dirt from the flesh.

And since we are talking about eternal damnation, regardless of the level of natural happiness in that damnation, as the price here, then I repeat: do you have an authoritative source saying that the unborn child's body must be touched by physical water, or do you merely have arguments from fittingness? Because if we're talking matters of hope, I would think this is just the sort of hope we ought to be looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:46 pm 
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It's not an argument from fittingness. It's an argument from what a sacrament is. No symbol, no sacrament.

Ott gives this as sent. certa (p. 352): The materia proxima of the Sacrament of Baptism is the ablution, by physical contact, of the body with water.

You won't find a formal doctrinal statement because no one has ever seriously questioned things from that direction. The challenges historically have come from those who insist on full immersion.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:37 pm 
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If I am doing the baptism of a healthy child, would it be enough if I pour water on his mother instead? After all, she's holding him in her arms.

How about if I pour water next to the child rather than on him? Surely that's close enough for government work.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:23 pm 
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I do not know what, if anything, the Church has said about the placenta being an organ of the child. I believe that reason suggests it is. If that's so, then it would indeed be easier to perform baptism on an unborn child than it might at one time have seemed. After all, in the case of emergency, the water doesn't necessarily need to flow over the person's head. (It is supposed to do so in ordinary cases, but IIRC, that is not absolutely essential.) It's something worth thinking about.

The argument about money doesn't carry any weight. You could easily enough imagine an extreme scenario where only the very rich could afford wine, or oil, in which case certain sacraments might become more or less unavailable to the poor. All too often, in fact, there have been cases where bread was not readily available for people. So, if I get your argument right, you say: "Only the very rich can afford surgical intervention to have their unborn children baptized. Do you think Jesus wants that?" And in reply I say "there have been many, many people throughout the world, throughout history, to whom the Gospel was never preached. Do you think Jesus wants that?" And I guess I could infer, then, that the Gospel isn't really necessary. ?? I get that you're just trying a tu quoque on fittingness arguments, but this one don't hold up.

Also, as Father said--not that I agree with him--neither he nor I have given fittingness arguments here.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:44 pm 
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Water doesn't have to flow over the head.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:45 pm 
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But it's apose to, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:05 pm 
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Yes.

Not that I agree with you, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:26 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Yes.

Not that I agree with you, of course.


I think the two of you should agree to disagree to agree. And then go back and disagree with said agreement to disagree to agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's not an argument from fittingness. It's an argument from what a sacrament is. No symbol, no sacrament.

No. You've only offered an argument from fittingness, and I'm not suggesting it would be a mere symbol. It would be the reality.

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Ott gives this as sent. certa (p. 352): The materia proxima of the Sacrament of Baptism is the ablution, by physical contact, of the body with water.

I don't have access to Ott. Is the context that it is SC that it is by ablution, or is the context in defense of the equal validity of immersion, effusion, and aspersion? (So the argument would be that the latter two are valid, and not only the former, since all three are by ablution?)

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You won't find a formal doctrinal statement because no one has ever seriously questioned things from that direction. The challenges historically have come from those who insist on full immersion.

Thus my question. And while it's clear that there's no formal challenge on this, and while the church doesn't rule on most, much less all, challenges, this strikes me as exactly the sort of thing requiring a ruling. Historically, the church did not understand embryology, so you understand the implication of the quickening and what that implied. Nor was the technology such that an unborn could have been baptized as they are today, so there was no reason for it to require a ruling. But as the world has changed, what the gospel has always meant given what we now know . . . isn't that why you have a magisterium?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If I am doing the baptism of a healthy child, would it be enough if I pour water on his mother instead? After all, she's holding him in her arms.

How about if I pour water next to the child rather than on him? Surely that's close enough for government work.

I don't take it that baptism is government work. ;)

But let's take your example and run with it. Suppose you went to baptize the child in her mother's arms, and as you recited the formula and began to pour, the mother swooned (or any other such interruption you can imagine) such that the water misses the child's body by mere millimeters. Moreover, this caused the child to fall and sadly, die immediately upon hitting the ground. Does the baptism entirely not "count" because you "missed"?

These are the sorts of legalities that I think Jesus was exasperated with.

The point is not to reduce sacraments to mere symbols, but neither is it to treat them legalistically. The point is to do what the church intends to do, and what the church intends to do is, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, administer the sacrament such that the grace applied is the washing away of original sin. In ordinary means, this means immersion, effusion, or aspersion with the recital of a certain formula. It seems to me that the fittingness argument is at least as convincing that sometimes, the situation is not ordinary.

On a final note, if you intentionally poured the water next to him, then you obviously wouldn't be doing what the church intends.

gherkin wrote:
I do not know what, if anything, the Church has said about the placenta being an organ of the child. I believe that reason suggests it is. If that's so, then it would indeed be easier to perform baptism on an unborn child than it might at one time have seemed. After all, in the case of emergency, the water doesn't necessarily need to flow over the person's head. (It is supposed to do so in ordinary cases, but IIRC, that is not absolutely essential.) It's something worth thinking about.

The argument about money doesn't carry any weight. You could easily enough imagine an extreme scenario where only the very rich could afford wine, or oil, in which case certain sacraments might become more or less unavailable to the poor. All too often, in fact, there have been cases where bread was not readily available for people. So, if I get your argument right, you say: "Only the very rich can afford surgical intervention to have their unborn children baptized. Do you think Jesus wants that?" And in reply I say "there have been many, many people throughout the world, throughout history, to whom the Gospel was never preached. Do you think Jesus wants that?" And I guess I could infer, then, that the Gospel isn't really necessary. ?? I get that you're just trying a tu quoque on fittingness arguments, but this one don't hold up.

Also, as Father said--not that I agree with him--neither he nor I have given fittingness arguments here.

Of course the argument about money carries weight. God has a preference for the pour, and to suggest that the very fact that you are of means gives you access to the beatific vision, to salvation itself, makes it something purchased, which is contrary to the very nature of the gospel.

Your counter arguments are not analogous. In the case of wine, it is well enough understood that not having access to the Eucharist, while devastating to the spiritual life, is no barrier to heaven. If it were, then no patient in a hospital could go NPO, because such patients are not permitted to receive the Sacrament. And the oil for healing? Again, this does not pose a barrier to heaven. And as for those to whom the gospel was never preached, I reply with Paul that they have no excuse. Here these people really do deserve hell. Indeed, such people have access to revelation, and they've rejected it. They're condemned of their own words and actions.

In fact, your final example proves my point. Regardless the status of Limbo, the argument for it is motivated precisely by this very difference: those who die in infancy are not guilty of sin in exactly the same sense I am. They die in original sin, and thus must be damned; but they have no personal sin, and so there seems something off in consigning them to eternal torments. But we go further and suggest that these individuals, while damned insofar as they don't receive the beatific vision and in suffering the effects of original sin, yet still enjoy perfect natural happiness (whatever exactly that ends up being, if it's even a meaningful concept (and I'm not sure it is)). So statements that it would have been better for certain people not to even have been born actually seem to have some understandable truth value!

So there's a real difference in those who never hear the gospel and those who die before they reach a state in which they even could hear and understand it (i.e., those who die before they personally sin). So, again, your examples and mine are apples and oranges. And what remains is that Catholic women of means could opt for a surgery or procedure whereby their unborn children could be baptized and thus have the stain of original sin removed whereas poor Catholic women--and again, I remind you of Jesus' preference for the poor--more, the children of these poor Catholic women, lack access to the sacrament and thus the grace. So the grace of God is now available at a price?

Or not just at a price, but then some Catholic women have access to this sacrament because of the time in which they live? Because they live in a time when we know, by the slightest needle prick, to baptize a child?

That's what you want to defend? Without a definitive ruling on which to defend it, appealing instead to fittingness? There are, in my assessment, at least as fitting arguments (and yes, based on what the sacrament actually is) to understand the sacrament as having a broader application than we once thought. And that shouldn't be surprising, as we didn't know much of anything about what the first nine months of human life actually was until very recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:03 pm 
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Please don't tell me that I don't understand Catholic sacramental theology. I might be terrible at explaining it, but I do understand it. It's not an argument from fittingness, and as long as you think it is, you are missing the point (and telling me that I don't understand my own argument, to boot).

"Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify." CCC 1127, citing Trent, Session 7, Canon 6.

Washing the mother signifies washing the mother; it does not signify washing her unborn child. There's nothing with "fittingness" involved. The child cannot receive the sacrament of baptism because he cannot receive the sign that signifies the grace to be received.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:17 pm 
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Telling you that I don't think you've thought through your argument to all its logical conclusions and with respect to relatively new information isn't the same thing as saying you don't understand sacramental theology. So please don't misrepresent my disagreement with your assessment as claiming you don't understand sacramentalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:30 pm 
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No. No. No. I am presenting 2000 years of Catholic theology, and it is just as arrogant for you to claim that it's missing a logical conclusion as it is for Denise to claim that no one has noticed a logical contradiction for 2000 years. If you don't get it, it's because you aren't looking.

Washing the mother does not signify washing the child; therefore it does not signify giving grace to the child; therefore the child does not receive grace.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:56 pm 
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We haven't had the understanding of embryology for 2000 years we do now, and the theology of the church has always been in a particular context driven by the questions being asked at the time. The question is what the new context means about what the church has always said.

I'm not saying you are wrong. Don't misrepresent my argument in attempt to discredit. That's beneath you.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:11 pm 
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Don't misrepresent mine by saying it has to do with fittingness. That's beneath you as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:08 pm 
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I think you are mistaken and you are making an argument from fittingness. Necessarily. You don't have a formal ruling on this, so it isn't from authority. It doesn't flow necessarily from first principles. God isn't bound by the sacraments, and we are dealing with how the sacraments ought to apply to questions we've not asked historically. All that's left is an argument from fittingness.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:20 pm 
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Wow.

I'm putting an end to this shameful disrespect. You don't get to come here and dictate to Catholics the what, when, why, and how of our sacraments or our beliefs. God isn't bound by the sacraments, but we are.


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