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 Post subject: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:18 pm 
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I) Where do the Carmelite doctors stand on the issue of Voluntarism and Intellectualism?

II) Does their position influence Carmelite spirituality one way or the other?

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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:24 pm 
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Carmelites, by and large, are Thomists.

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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Carmelites, by and large, are Thomists.


Is that consistent with mental prayer techniques that focus on the affective rather than intellectual aspects of meditation?

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:30 pm 
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The reason I ask is that I too have heard that the Carmelites are by and large Thomists; however, I am wondering if it is implicitly voluntarist to use St Theresa of Avila's mental prayer method which focuses much on affection, love, and will.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:45 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
The reason I ask is that I too have heard that the Carmelites are by and large Thomists; however, I am wondering if it is implicitly voluntarist to use St Theresa of Avila's mental prayer method which focuses much on affection, love, and will.

Have you read Lagrange on this? This is his wheelhouse

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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:55 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
The reason I ask is that I too have heard that the Carmelites are by and large Thomists; however, I am wondering if it is implicitly voluntarist to use St Theresa of Avila's mental prayer method which focuses much on affection, love, and will.

Have you read Lagrange on this? This is his wheelhouse


Where in his corpus should I look?

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:06 am 
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PED seems to come and go around here, so in case he's gone for a little while, perhaps he would answer Christian Perfection and Contemplation and The Three Ages of the Interior Life.

The first one is specifically about St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross. It is not my wheelhouse. I did read this book and remember enjoying it, but that was some years ago and I can't really tell you anything about it.

The second one is maybe Fr. G-L's most significant work, according to what I hear. It's a huge, two-volume thing. I guess I'd start with the former! There's also the Three Conversions of the Spiritual Life, which is a brief work I haven't read yet. I imagine it's kind of an abbreviation and popularization of the Three Ages, but I don't know that for sure. He often worked that way--writing a dense academic treatise on a topic and then writing something much more accessible for the average layman.

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 Post subject: Re: Voluntarism, St Theresa, and St John of Cross
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:42 am 
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gherkin wrote:
PED seems to come and go around here, so in case he's gone for a little while, perhaps he would answer Christian Perfection and Contemplation and The Three Ages of the Interior Life.

The first one is specifically about St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross. It is not my wheelhouse. I did read this book and remember enjoying it, but that was some years ago and I can't really tell you anything about it.

The second one is maybe Fr. G-L's most significant work, according to what I hear. It's a huge, two-volume thing. I guess I'd start with the former! There's also the Three Conversions of the Spiritual Life, which is a brief work I haven't read yet. I imagine it's kind of an abbreviation and popularization of the Three Ages, but I don't know that for sure. He often worked that way--writing a dense academic treatise on a topic and then writing something much more accessible for the average layman.

Bingo!

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