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 Post subject: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Hmm


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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:19 pm 
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If Fr. James Martin's eccentricities are news to you, well, now you know. He professes fidelity to Church teachings and then charmingly undermines them at every turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:21 pm 
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I can hear Mother Angelica's 1993 rant... "I'm tired of your refusal to admit the Son God was a Man!"


Last edited by Matthew Michael on Sun May 01, 2016 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:23 pm 
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If Mother said that, she was wrong. Except with respect to the Incarnation.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Had to correct it


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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:27 pm 
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Take another look ... I think you're still short a preposition.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:58 pm 
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I'm confused by this thread. The Holy Spirit, i.e. God, does not have any gender, neither male nor female. Therefore referring to the Holy Spirit as "she" is no more incorrect than referring to the Holy Spirit as "he".


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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:02 pm 
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God the Father is properly referred to as "Father," just as the Son is properly referred to as "Son." To introduce female terms with reference to the Spirit is to introduce into the Godhead a distinction--that of sexuality--that does not exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:38 pm 
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Following.


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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:13 pm 
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If we're going to refer to Persons of the Trinity, we have to do it on the terms of the Triune God, since we only know the distinction of the Persons by His own revelation of Himself.

Since in the Sacred Scriptures, God is always referred to as "He" and the Holy Spirit is never referred to as "she", it seems audacious at best to refer to the Holy Spirit as "she" and blasphemous as worst [though I'm not sure it goes quite that far].

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:29 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
If we're going to refer to Persons of the Trinity, we have to do it on the terms of the Triune God, since we only know the distinction of the Persons by His own revelation of Himself.

Since in the Sacred Scriptures, God is always referred to as "He" and the Holy Spirit is never referred to as "she", it seems audacious at best to refer to the Holy Spirit as "she" and blasphemous as worst [though I'm not sure it goes quite that far].

No, sorry. I think this has much less to do with a Scriptural or even theological precedence (or even fittingness, which I bet would be the basis from which the Fr would be attempting to work) as much as it is from a principle of differentiation. If the Father and Son are properly spoken of as "He" (even if that language is, of course, metaphorical), then to suggest that the Holy Spirit is properly spoken of as "She" suggests some principle of differentiation beyond the relations between the Trinity. But now you get into all sorts of very serious problems. So either refer to all the Persons as "she" (which should be obviously problematic for fittingness) or none of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:39 pm 
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I'm not sure that you're disagreeing with me or with TCA.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 11:03 pm 
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I have heard that the reason why masculine language is used of God is because it implies divine transcendence and separation from his creation, because when a man fathers a child, he does so from the outside, whereas feminine imagery would suggest that God gave birth to the universe, and therefore suggests pantheism,

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 11:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not sure that you're disagreeing with me or with TCA.

I don't disagree with you. And if I do, not publicly. It would be imprudent. :wave

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 11:11 pm 
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Doom wrote:
I have heard that the reason why masculine language is used of God is because it implies divine transcendence and separation from his creation, because when a man fathers a child, he does so from the outside, whereas feminine imagery would suggest that God gave birth to the universe, and therefore suggests pantheism,
I'm sure that's it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:30 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God the Father is properly referred to as "Father," just as the Son is properly referred to as "Son." To introduce female terms with reference to the Spirit is to introduce into the Godhead a distinction--that of sexuality--that does not exist.

I take your point, but it only seems a little bit eccentric and harmless, while being quite thought-provoking, to be reminded in this way that God is not a man.


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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 7:51 am 
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Daisy wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God the Father is properly referred to as "Father," just as the Son is properly referred to as "Son." To introduce female terms with reference to the Spirit is to introduce into the Godhead a distinction--that of sexuality--that does not exist.

I take your point, but it only seems a little bit eccentric and harmless, while being quite thought-provoking, to be reminded in this way that God is not a man.



No, it is harmful, because if God is a 'she' instead of a 'he', it implies pantheism, which is why pretty much every person who engages in this kind of talk is a pantheist.

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:01 am 
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It's also a bit odd to speak of Our Lady being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is "she."

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 Post subject: Re: Wel im disturbed
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:49 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
It's also a bit odd to speak of Our Lady being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is "she."


It's also a bit odd to speak of Our Lady being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is "he". It's a bit odd to speak of Our Lady being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Mother of God at the same time, with God and the Holy Spirit being one.

It's a bit odd to think of God as a man with two arms and two legs and everything else a man has.

It's a bit odd to think that Jesus who is God sits at the right hand of God.

And so on...

It's all a bit odd!


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