Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 6   [ 106 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:47 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82672
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Gosh. How is it that "love" is the only word where you're able to pick out the precise intended meaning among all the various possibilities, whereas with any other word, you throw up your hands in despair?

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:15 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Gosh. How is it that "love" is the only word where you're able to pick out the precise intended meaning among all the various possibilities, whereas with any other word, you throw up your hands in despair?

What on earth are you talking about, Obi? I have repeatedly singled out the word "natural" as being a very ill-defined and therefore unhelpful word, and you have somehow chosen to interpret what I said about one single word as applying to all words! :scratch:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:27 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82672
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
I'm very wary of answering a question with the word "fate" in it. What you mean by "fate" may not be what somebody else thinks "fate" means.

Quote:
I'm not talking about unrealistic and undefinable "perfect happiness"

Quote:
So what does “deserve” mean, in this context? Are you using a definition that’s in any dictionary?


"Any other word" was indeed hyperbole. But you've used this approach before when adequate explanations have been given, as they have been in this case. I (and several others) have given you workable definitions of what "natural" means in this context.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:51 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
I'm very wary of answering a question with the word "fate" in it. What you mean by "fate" may not be what somebody else thinks "fate" means.

Quote:
I'm not talking about unrealistic and undefinable "perfect happiness"

Quote:
So what does “deserve” mean, in this context? Are you using a definition that’s in any dictionary?


"Any other word" was indeed hyperbole. But you've used this approach before when adequate explanations have been given, as they have been in this case. I (and several others) have given you workable definitions of what "natural" means in this context.

There's nothing wrong with asking someone to define a word they're using in a discussion, such as "deserve", it's helpful, it can stop people talking at cross purposes.

The concept of "perfect happiness" is indeed indefinable. If you disagree, define "perfect happiness".

So the only other word which I have said is too imprecise and ill-defined is the word "fate" (in the context in which it was used). So that's TWO words out of all the words in the dictionary.

And that, at the most, is just one word more than you have said "depends on what you mean by":
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That depends on what you mean by "natural".



You are being very kind to yourself in saying: '"Any other word" was indeed hyperbole'!



Here's another example of how "natural" is often not a useful word:

We are all sinners. So is it "natural" for us to sin"?

If it's NATURAL for us to sin, then how could all sin be unnatural?

But if it's UNNATURAL for us to sin, then how could hell be "the natural fate of man"?

You can't have it both ways!

Jack3, if you want to argue that something is immoral, your argument will not be helped by trying to claim that it's immoral because it's "unnatural".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:03 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82672
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
You're playing word games. We've tried several times to tell you what "natural" means in this context, and you keep dragging in irrelevant examples.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:26 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You're playing word games. We've tried several times to tell you what "natural" means in this context, and you keep dragging in irrelevant examples.

I've got no problem with using the word "natural" in any serious discussion if you make it clear what you mean by the word. I'm pointing out that if you DON'T make it clear what you mean by "natural", it's a useless word to use, it can mean many different things to different people.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:09 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 298
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You're playing word games. We've tried several times to tell you what "natural" means in this context, and you keep dragging in irrelevant examples.

I've got no problem with using the word "natural" in any serious discussion if you make it clear what you mean by the word. I'm pointing out that if you DON'T make it clear what you mean by "natural", it's a useless word to use, it can mean many different things to different people.



The assertion is not credible.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:17 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You're playing word games. We've tried several times to tell you what "natural" means in this context, and you keep dragging in irrelevant examples.



Shortly after Jack3 asked his initial question, which was:
Jack3 wrote:
As homosexual acts are unnatural, are all sins unnatural?

he then asked:
Jack3 wrote:
Arn't there some cases of homosexuality in animals?


Then after I repeatedly pointed out that “natural” is a very ill-defined word, defined in different ways by different people, Amon gave this definition:
Amon98 wrote:
Unnatural means contrary to right reason.

Obi seemed to give the same definition, less succinctly.

So when Jack3 initially asked:
Jack3 wrote:
As homosexual acts are unnatural, are all sins unnatural?
it is clear that Jack3’s definition of “natural” was NOT “contrary to right reason”, because if it were, he would not have asked:
Jack3 wrote:
Aren't there some cases of homosexuality in animals?
because it would have been an entirely irrelevant question if by “natural” he meant “contrary to right reason”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:19 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4998
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
That there appears to be "homosexuality" among animals has literally no bearing on the ethical question of "ought humans engage in homosexual behavior" or "ought it to be considered natural for human beings to engage in homosexual behavior?"

If for no other reason that its completely inappropriate for human ethical guidelines to be derived from animal behavior. And the only reason why the attempt is made is to rationalize and justify an a-priori ideological opinion.

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:47 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 298
Religion: Catholic
Animals do not have human level cognition.

The dictionary meaning of unnatural has been rejected. The assertion is then made that the word is not adequately defined.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:17 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
That there appears to be "homosexuality" among animals has literally no bearing on the ethical question of "ought humans engage in homosexual behavior" or "ought it to be considered natural for human beings to engage in homosexual behavior?"

In other words, what may be natural may not necessarily be natural.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:22 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4998
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
That there appears to be "homosexuality" among animals has literally no bearing on the ethical question of "ought humans engage in homosexual behavior" or "ought it to be considered natural for human beings to engage in homosexual behavior?"

In other words, what may be natural may not necessarily be natural.


No.

Rather that what may be displayed or exhibited may not necessarily be natural.

You're seemingly just trying to use "natural" in a sophistic and equivocal way to push your point in spite of the fact that it's been addressed numerous times.

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:37 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
That there appears to be "homosexuality" among animals has literally no bearing on the ethical question of "ought humans engage in homosexual behavior" or "ought it to be considered natural for human beings to engage in homosexual behavior?"

In other words, what may be natural may not necessarily be natural.


No.

Rather that what may be displayed or exhibited may not necessarily be natural.

You're seemingly just trying to use "natural" in a sophistic and equivocal way to push your point in spite of the fact that it's been addressed numerous times.




Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That depends on what you mean by "natural."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:38 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4998
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
That there appears to be "homosexuality" among animals has literally no bearing on the ethical question of "ought humans engage in homosexual behavior" or "ought it to be considered natural for human beings to engage in homosexual behavior?"

In other words, what may be natural may not necessarily be natural.


No.

Rather that what may be displayed or exhibited may not necessarily be natural.

You're seemingly just trying to use "natural" in a sophistic and equivocal way to push your point in spite of the fact that it's been addressed numerous times.




Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That depends on what you mean by "natural."


Ok, and?

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:49 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 899
Religion: Looking for answers
A man with a gun comes to my door demanding to know where he can find his intended victim, a woman who happens to be hiding in my home. He asks me if I know where she is. It is natural to want to protect life.

So it would be natural for me to protect the woman’s life and protect my own life and say “No, I don’t know where she is”, as convincingly as possible, and try to put him off the scent and buy some time for the police to arrive.

But the Catholic Church teaches that lying is a sin, and if all sin is unnatural, then the inescapable conclusion is that as it would be natural for me to protect life by lying, it would be natural for me to do something unnatural”!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:21 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 9123
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Wrong is wrong, unnatural is unnatural, even with good intentions and good consequences.
I think we may misleadingly equivocate or stay silent - anything but sin.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:52 pm 
Offline
Jr. Wazzooship-Winning Moderator
Jr. Wazzooship-Winning Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:18 pm
Posts: 19178
Location: Just visiting this planet.
Religion: Finally Catholic!
Church Affiliations: Legion of Mary, SVdP
What Jack3 said. There are many more possible responses than “endanger the woman” and “lie.” To present only those two is disingenuous.

_________________
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." --Douglas Adams

Image

Commit to the Image

formerly "ghall512"--Thanks for the idea, arkcatholic! :clap:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:01 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82672
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Equivocating on "natural," again, despite the presence of the correct definition.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 9123
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Jack3 wrote:
Wrong is wrong, unnatural is unnatural, even with good intentions and good consequences.
I think we may misleadingly equivocate or stay silent - anything but sin.

I remembered Newman's quote on speaking a penny farthing without excuse.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:09 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4998
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Morality consists of three factors: absolute and objective moral principles, relative and objective situations, and subjective motives.

All three must be right for the act to be good or "natural."

This is basic Catholic morality 101.

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 6   [ 106 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: