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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:45 pm 
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Journeyman
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
An act is natural when it is in accord with the nature of a thing. The nature of a human being is a rational animal. Rationality is what makes us distinct from other animals. An animal without reason is at the pull of its sensual desires and stimuli; it cannot ask whether a certain act is truly good for it. For humans (and other rational animals, if they exist [e.g., aliens]), we act in accord with our nature when we do what truly builds us up, even when that is unpleasant, and when we avoid what tears us down, even when that is pleasant.

I think that’s an excellent definition. But I don’t think it’s an excellent definition of ‘natural’ behaviour. I think it’s an excellent definition of intelligent behaviour.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:53 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The nature of a human being is a rational animal.

Observation would suggest otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
An act is natural when it is in accord with the nature of a thing. The nature of a human being is a rational animal. Rationality is what makes us distinct from other animals. An animal without reason is at the pull of its sensual desires and stimuli; it cannot ask whether a certain act is truly good for it. For humans (and other rational animals, if they exist [e.g., aliens]), we act in accord with our nature when we do what truly builds us up, even when that is unpleasant, and when we avoid what tears us down, even when that is pleasant.

I’m sure you would say that sex outside of marriage does not “truly build us up”. It’s natural for at least some people to want to have children. If a pagan man and a pagan woman love each other, and are sure after several years that they love each other, and they are committed to each other, and live together, and they want to have children, surely you would have to concede that under those circumstances , it would be NATURAL for them to sleep together in order to have the children they naturally want? And yet you believe that sex outside of marriage does not “truly build us up”. So that’s an example of something which is “natural” which you would say does NOT “truly build us up”. So your definition fails.

Or would you say it’s UNNATURAL for a faithful and committed pagan couple to sleep together when they want to have children? If so, that’s quite a bold claim! And quite an eccentric use of the word “unnatural”!


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:00 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
An act is natural when it is in accord with the nature of a thing. The nature of a human being is a rational animal. Rationality is what makes us distinct from other animals. An animal without reason is at the pull of its sensual desires and stimuli; it cannot ask whether a certain act is truly good for it. For humans (and other rational animals, if they exist [e.g., aliens]), we act in accord with our nature when we do what truly builds us up, even when that is unpleasant, and when we avoid what tears us down, even when that is pleasant.

I’m sure you would say that sex outside of marriage does not “truly build us up”. It’s natural for at least some people to want to have children. If a pagan man and a pagan woman love each other, and are sure after several years that they love each other, and they are committed to each other, and live together, and they want to have children, surely you would have to concede that under those circumstances , it would be NATURAL for them to sleep together in order to have the children they naturally want? And yet you believe that sex outside of marriage does not “truly build us up”. So that’s an example of something which is “natural” which you would say does NOT “truly build us up”. So your definition fails.

Or would you say it’s UNNATURAL for a faithful and committed pagan couple to sleep together when they want to have children? If so, that’s quite a bold claim! And quite an eccentric use of the word “unnatural”!




If I know the truth of something I need not invent a new meaning for that truth. No one has to be pagan today. No one has to ignore the truth today. Once the truth is known, clearly, there is no other right answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:30 pm 
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You might try asking what I think rather than telling me. And what I think is that the optimal environment for a child to grow up in is a stable one where the father and mother are both present. Since most cultures, pagan or not, encourage and support such an arrangement (Margaret Meade's "research" is thoroughly discredited), it is likely that such arrangements are in accord with reason.

BTW, I know that you are a single mother and what I said is not meant as a shot at you. I am confident you will do your very best to raise your daughter as well as you can, and I don't know nor need to know why things in your life turned out this way. But the challenges that single parents--especially single mothers--face are well-documented.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:51 pm 
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I should also add that a pagan man and a pagan woman can enter into what's called a "natural" marriage (as opposed to a sacramental marriage), and that such a marriage is perfectly valid as long as the parties are free to marry and intend to into into a life-long faithful marriage that is open to children. A baptized Christian and a non-Christian can also enter into a valid marriage under the same conditions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You might try asking what I think rather than telling me. And what I think is that the optimal environment for a child to grow up in is a stable one where the father and mother are both present. Since most cultures, pagan or not, encourage and support such an arrangement (Margaret Meade's "research" is thoroughly discredited), it is likely that such arrangements are in accord with reason.

BTW, I know that you are a single mother and what I said is not meant as a shot at you. I am confident you will do your very best to raise your daughter as well as you can, and I don't know nor need to know why things in your life turned out this way. But the challenges that single parents--especially single mothers--face are well-documented.

That's all okay, I don't disagree with anything in that, and I won't assume what your answer might be in case I assume incorrectly, but you seem to be saying that a sexual relationship outside of marriage can be "natural", and is "natural" in the situation I outlined, is that correct?

If that is correct, then this question naturally arises:

If it were a Catholic couple in the exact same situation (which seems to be a quite common situation for young Catholic couples), would their sleeping together also be "natural" behaviour, according to your definition of "natural"?


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:44 pm 
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Question: is there any sin that is not unnatural?

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:45 pm 
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A sexual relationship outside a sacramental marriage can be natural. A sexual relationship outside of a married relationship (whatever that looks like in a particular culture) is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:31 pm 
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If you're referring to natural marriages, that's not what I'm looking for.


Are pride, jealousy, robbery, murder etc unnatural? Is unnatural the same as immoral?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:33 pm 
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I was responding to Denise. Sorry for not being clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:41 pm 
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Thank you. Can you tell me is all sin is unnatural, please?

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:00 pm 
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They are all contrary to right reason, though in the case of positive Church law, the misuse of reason is in ignoring the governing authority of the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:26 pm 
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So, is saying something is unnatural is saying that it is immoral, only viewed from another perspective?

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:31 pm 
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Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:30 am 
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Thank you

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:25 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Thank you. Can you tell me is all sin is unnatural, please?

It depends on your definition of “unnatural”!

The Catholic Church teaches that it’s a sin to miss Mass on a Sunday. So if all sin is “unnatural”, then it’s “unnatural” to miss Mass on a Sunday, and it’s therefore “unnatural” for a Protestant to go to a Protestant church on a Sunday instead of going to Mass in a Catholic Church, it’s “unnatural” for an agnostic to choose not to go to Mass on a Sunday, it’s “unnatural” for a Jew to choose not to go to Mass on a Sunday. I don’t think many Protestants, Jews or agnostics would agree with that definition of “unnatural”!

But, by that definition, it’s not “unnatural” for a Catholic to miss Mass on a Monday! It’s only “unnatural” on a Sunday or Saturday evening, but it’s not “unnatural” on a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday or Friday, unless it’s a Holy Day of Obligation, in which case it then is “unnatural” to miss Mass! What an odd definition of “unnatural” that is!

Obi has acknowledged that it can be “natural” for an unmarried couple in a stable loving relationship to live together and sleep together with the intention of having children. But according to the Catholic Church it’s a sin to have a sexual relationship outside of marriage. So that’s a sin which Obi (he can correct me if I’m wrong) believes isn’t always “unnatural”.

The Catholic Church has traditionally taught that it’s a sin for a divorced woman to have a sexual relationship with anyone other than her husband (for as long as he remains alive). So if a woman has a valid marriage, but her husband leaves her before they have any children, and he gets a divorce, and he marries someone else, and starts a family with his second wife, the Church teaches that it is a sin for the childless woman to have a sexual relationship with any other man. If the childless woman then meets the man of her dreams, and they fall in love, and after a couple of years of a stable loving relationship, they both decide they want to have children, and they sleep together for the purpose of having children, could you seriously argue that the woman’s behaviour is “unnatural”? Maybe you could if your definition of “unnatural” is “sinful” but that’s a total tautology. The woman’s behaviour could not be described as “unnatural” by any normal definition of “unnatural”.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:33 pm 
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Nothing written qualifies as a good argument. The truth is the truth for everyone. Unnatural means contrary to right reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:23 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Unnatural means contrary to right reason.

According to whom?


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:27 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Unnatural means contrary to right reason.

It’s quite reasonable to believe that wearing clothes in a hot climate is “unnatural” but not contrary to right reason.


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