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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:

So, Highlander, would you care to spell out what exactly was wrong with Pope Francis telling a grieving boy that his atheist father is in heaven?

Have you heard of God's mercy?


Non sequitur.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:19 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
So, Highlander, would you care to spell out what exactly was wrong with Pope Francis telling a grieving boy that his atheist father is in heaven?


I'm a former atheist.

I also still know and are friends with many atheists.

So I can be quite confident in saying that its wrong because it's more than just likely that that boys father spat on God's mercy and locked the doors to hell behind him rather than enter heaven.

And lying to someone to make themselves feel better and to spare yourself of an uncomfortable conversation isn't loving at all.

What Francis ought to have told the boy is that he didn't know, but to pray for his father and to trust and have hope in God's mercy.

Quote:
Have you heard of God's mercy?


I have, just like I've heard of the other side of that coin called repentance.

You can't have the former without the latter. Just like you can't have love apart from truth, nor can you have freedom without it's necessary relationship to the good, or rights without responsibilities.

All these principles require that we walk the path between them without deviating to either extreme and thus falling into the excess of one or the other.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:07 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
It's got nothing to do with me, Gandolph, or you, it's about Pope Francis whom you criticised with that cartoon and saying that he's "down in the muck".


When you start to moralize and virtue-signal, when you start to project your own motives and intentions onto others because you're judging them by what you either would do, or have done, in similar circumstances, you make it about you. And it's perfectly legitimate to point that out.

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I've shown you that Jesus chose to be with prostitutes and other sinners, whom the Pharisees described as "scum", sinners who know they are sinners not people who think they are righteous.


That's not at all the same thing as what Francis is doing.

Jesus ate with prostitutes and tax collectors in order to scandalize the Pharisees and shock them onto the realization that He was doing what they ought to have been doing, not to show that prostitution and extortion were "okey-dokey" and that they essentially didn't matter morally.

Francis is saying that morals are subjective, that the Church needs to conform to the world and society in order to be "relevant" rather than the world needing to conform to the eternal truths of the Faith as expressed by the Church.

Francis is saying that to love sinners the Church has to love sin(that is unless they're "sins" like those expressed by Marxism or "ecological sins" as expressed by popular ideological scientism).

So the cartoon is entirely accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:15 am 
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Doom wrote:
Highlander wrote:
More:

In a dialogue with Catholic high school students in Rome this weekend, Pope Francis responded to a question about how to deal with atheists and people of other faiths by saying that Christians should never proselytize — and any who do are not truly Christians.

The Pope's lengthy answer, reprinted in full at the bottom of this article, contained numerous notable remarks illustrating the Pope's views on evangelism, including:

[Speaking of having Jewish and Muslim friends]: "We are all the same, all children of God."
"It didn't occur to me, and it doesn't have to be like, saying to a boy or a girl: 'You are Jewish, you are Muslim: come, be converted!'"
"We are not in the times of the crusades."
"In front of an unbeliever the last thing I have to do is try to convince him. Never."
"But listen: Never, never bring the gospel by proselytizing."
"If someone says they are a disciple of Jesus and comes to you with proselytism, they are not a disciple of Jesus."
"The Church does not grow by proselytism."

Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus



When I read things like this, I am tempted to believe in the prophecy of St Malachy that Francis is "Peter the Roman", an arch heretic and Antichrist.

Afaik it doesn't say peter the roman was an archheretic.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:58 am 
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Peter the Roman is the rock who sets things straight, IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:25 am 
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Quote:
(In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End.)


while it is true that Peter the Roman would be the next prophecy, i think bets were hedged to take into account the possibility of other popes before the FINAL pope, Peter the Roman ... would kinda destroy the flow of the prophecy order would it not?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:43 am 
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As this discussion continues, I am beginning to understand the Catholic nuance on the concept of "scandal". I still respect and am willing to pay due deference to the Pope, but my ambiguity about his capture, in some respects, by modern secularism is being clarified as he states his intentions to "reform" the Church and as he chides, even denigrates, those in the pews who are earnestly seeking a solid base of belief and practice. It has been argued that language and language translation has contributed to misunderstanding of the Pope's statements. I agree, in part. However, he has now made enough statements to indicate elements of his belief and intent.

As in other infiltration of contemporary institutions by the atheist left, I wonder how the apparatus of the Vatican will look in five or ten years. I am concerned that it will mirror, to some significant extent, that of the various collapsing Anglican and Protestant churches that are indistinguishable from NGO's, university administrations, liberal advocacy groups, and other secular agnostic and atheist bodies.

Perhaps someone more versed than I in Liberation Theology can inform us whether the Pope is a product of that background. It seems, to me, he is.

P.S. HST, it is Christmas Eve and I need to remove myself from all of this for the next two days.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:45 am 
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Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus

I saw a YouTube video of that a few weeks ago, it was beautiful, I cried. Here's why:
Denise Dee wrote:
My closest friend died 10 days ago. I have cried every day since then. She was an atheist, with a slight interest in Buddhism but although baptised and brought up in a Catholic family, she had absolutely no interest in Catholicism or Christianity. She clearly saw the contradictions in orthodox religion and had no time for it.

I sat with her brother looking at her corpse in the hospital room in which she died, just a few hours after she died. We both felt overwhelming love for her, we loved her for all the years we knew her during her life, even though she was often very difficult, she had problems and sometimes took out her frustrations on those closest to her, which we often didn't deserve. But we understood, and we forgave her, and we knew that underneath her sometimes harsh exterior was a very soft, fragile, loving heart, which often melted my heart, and other people's hearts.

As I sat gazing at the face of her corpse, with feelings of immense love for her, I said to her brother "We have overwhelming love for her, if you believe that God is love, can you imagine how much God loves her?"

At such times cold dry theories and doctrines and speculative theologies about who will or will not be "saved" from "eternal punishment" are entirely irrelevant. The feeling of overwhelming love for my friend outshone all else, answered all doubts.

I know that not all Catholics believe that "few will be saved" but can you imagine anyone who believes that "few will be saved" actually stating that belief to me and my friend's brother as we sat in the room with her (corpse) feeling immense love for her? Can you imagine a hospital chaplain coming into the room and stating his belief that only a few will be saved, we would have kicked him out and told him to wise up.

My deceased closest friend, who had no time for Christianity but whose death left a lot of people crying with love for her, is no exception. There are very many people like that, ordinary imperfect people who do not agree with teachings of Catholicism or Christianity, but who are not wicked. Any teaching which suggests that almost all of these people (with just possibly a tiny few exceptions) will be condemned by an infinitely merciful loving God to suffer eternal punishment is ludicrous beyond belief, and incredibly cruel to close friends and family members who may be susceptible to possibly believing such nonsense.

The fact that no responsible person who believes in the doctrine of "Only a few will be saved" would state this belief at the wake or funeral of a nonbeliever, shows that it is not the truth, because the truth is not something that needs to be hidden.

In all my experience of Catholicism and funerals, there are barely any Catholics who believe that God is not as loving and kind and merciful as we humans are. Ordinary Catholics are often wiser than some of those higher up in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Ordinary Catholics are often closer to their own hearts and their own humanity and do not live in ivory towers.


So, Highlander, would you care to spell out what exactly was wrong with Pope Francis telling a grieving boy that his atheist father is in heaven?

Have you heard of God's mercy?



If everyone goes straight to heaven no matter what then Christianity is a complete joke and a total waste of time. Indeed there would be only two kinds of people in this world:

1. People who spend their entire lives indulging in the selfish pursuit of pleasure, looking out for #1 and saying to hell with everyone else
2. Complete morons

Christianity without love and understanding of God's mercy is a complete joke and total waste of time.

If you swop the word 'salvation' for the word 'pleasure' in your description of the only two kinds of people there would be in the world, it's a perfect description of a lot of Christians:

1. People who spend their entire lives indulging in the selfish pursuit of salvation, looking out for #1 and saying to hell with everyone else
2. Complete morons


It's incredibly simplistic and unsophisticated nonsense to suppose that because God is absolutely loving and absolutely merciful, if He doesn't inflict eternal punishment on anyone, then the only other possible consequence for anything we do is that we go "straight to heaven no matter what".

Loving parent don’t have just two options if a child does something wrong. If the only two options were to banish the child from their loving family for ever or keep them in their loving family without teaching them that there are consequences to doing wrong, then perhaps you might have a point, Doom, but what loving parents would banish their child for ever? However, those are clearly not the only two options, as every loving parent knows, so you don’t have a point, Doom.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:42 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Peter the Roman is the rock who sets things straight, IIRC.


It depends on who's the one doing the interpreting most of the people who are deep deep deep into the prophecies of saint Malachi believe that the final Pope is to be the Antichrist. Note I didn't say I actually believed it I said that when I hear the pope saying such an early despicable things as was quoted by a Highlander that I'm tempted. And I am tempted which is why I tend to ignore everything the Pope says it does. Otherwise it's a constant occasion of sin for me to listen to what he has to say most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:38 am 
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You're being ridiculous Doom.


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