Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 70 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:56 am 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13403
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Alexandros wrote:
Quote:
"It must first be kept in mind that every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God’s Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions.


In every authentic religious experience, the most characteristic expression is prayer. Because of the human spirit’s constitutive openness to God’s action of urging it to self-transcendence, we can hold that “every authentic prayer is called forth by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person.”

(Address to the Members of the Roman Curia, 22 Dec. 1986, n. 11; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 5 Jan. 1987, p. 7).

I was unaware of this statement by the Pope. Now I have something else to be discouraged about. It suggests that the Pope is an adherent of religious pluralism.

From Wiki:

Quote:
Religious pluralism is an attitude or policy regarding the diversity of religious belief systems co-existing in society. It can indicate one or more of the following:

As the name of the worldview according to which one's own religion is not held to be the sole and exclusive source of truth, and thus the acknowledgement that at least some truths and true values exist in other religions.

As acceptance of the concept that two or more religions with mutually exclusive truth claims are equally valid, this may be considered a form of either toleration ... or moral relativism.

The understanding that the exclusive claims of different religions turn out, upon closer examination, to be variations of universal truths that have been taught since time immemorial. This is called Perennialism ... or Traditionalism.

Sometimes as a synonym for ecumenism, i.e., the promotion of some level of unity, co-operation, and improved understanding between different religions or different denominations within a single religion.

As a term for the condition of harmonious co-existence between adherents of different religions or religious denominations.

As a social norm and not merely a synonym for religious diversity.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:13 am 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13403
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
I just read this:

Quote:
In his Christmas message to Vatican officials Saturday, Pope Francis blamed Catholicism's decline on "rigidity" and "fear of change," saying, "We need other maps, other paradigms that might help us change our ways of thinking":

"We are not in Christianity, not anymore! We are no longer under a Christian regime because the faith—especially in Europe, but also in much of the West—no longer constitutes an obvious premise of common life. On the contrary, it is even often denied, derided, marginalized and ridiculed."

The pope continued:

"Here we have to beware of the temptation of assuming a rigid outlook. Rigidity that is born from fear of change and ends up disseminating stakes and obstacles in the ground of the common good, turning it into a minefield of misunderstanding and hatred. Rigidity and imbalance fuel one another in a vicious circle, and these days, the temptation to rigidity has become so apparent."

The Associated Press reports:

Francis' message appeared aimed at conservative and traditionalist Catholics, including within the Vatican Curia, who have voiced increasing opposition to his progressive-minded papacy.

The Wall Street Journal compared Francis to his predecessors, St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI:

Those popes stressed a need to clarify and reaffirm traditional teachings in response to liberalizing tendencies within the church and wider society. By contrast, Pope Francis has tended to play down such teachings and focus on social causes such as economic equality, the rights of migrants and efforts to counteract global warming.

In similar remarks earlier this year, the pope said:

"Rigidity arises from fear of change and ends up strewing the ground of the common good with stakes and obstacles, turning it into a minefield of lack of communication and hatred. Let's remember always that behind every rigidity lies some derangement."

"Tradition is not static, it's dynamic," Francis said Saturday.


There are other churches who have embraced this commitment to "change". Their experience brings Shelly to mind:

Quote:
...
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:55 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 19810
There are other churches who have embraced this commitment to "change". Their experience brings Shelly to mind:

Quote:
...
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.


Yep.

I often think of some of them, some of those other churches.

_________________
"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:24 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83634
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
His overall diagnosis is correct. I'm just not sure he has chosen the right changes to effect a remedy.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:29 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76478
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
His overall diagnosis is correct. I'm just not sure he has chosen the right changes to effect a remedy.


This is probably going to sound uncharitable, but it sounds like Francis has been reading John Spong, in particular, the book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die", except that the Pope substitutes "rigidity" for every time Spong says "fundamentalism", but they both seem to mean the same thing.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:02 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 19810
Doom wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
His overall diagnosis is correct. I'm just not sure he has chosen the right changes to effect a remedy.


This is probably going to sound uncharitable, but it sounds like Francis has been reading John Spong, in particular, the book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die", except that the Pope substitutes "rigidity" for every time Spong says "fundamentalism", but they both seem to mean the same thing.



The Spongster! Indeed.

_________________
"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:33 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4999
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
When Francis talks like this it always reminds me of this, except he's the one down in the muck....

https://pics.me.me/really-if-youd-just-jump-in-you-would-become-so-25026905.png

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:44 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 956
Religion: Looking for answers
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
When Francis talks like this it always reminds me of this, except he's the one down in the muck....

https://pics.me.me/really-if-youd-just-jump-in-you-would-become-so-25026905.png


That's a very "holier than thou" cartoon.


Matthew 21:31

"I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do."

Matthew 9:10-13

Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?"

When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’ For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

Matthew 11:19

"The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:31 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76478
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
When Francis talks like this it always reminds me of this, except he's the one down in the muck....

https://pics.me.me/really-if-youd-just-jump-in-you-would-become-so-25026905.png


That's a very "holier than thou" cartoon.


Matthew 21:31

"I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do."

Matthew 9:10-13

Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?"

When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’ For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

Matthew 11:19

"The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!"


Jesus told the prostitutes and sinners to repent he didn't tell them they were doing nothing wrong, least of all did he do what modern people do and condemn virgins for not being prostitutes

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:35 am 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13403
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
More:

In a dialogue with Catholic high school students in Rome this weekend, Pope Francis responded to a question about how to deal with atheists and people of other faiths by saying that Christians should never proselytize — and any who do are not truly Christians.

The Pope's lengthy answer, reprinted in full at the bottom of this article, contained numerous notable remarks illustrating the Pope's views on evangelism, including:

[Speaking of having Jewish and Muslim friends]: "We are all the same, all children of God."
"It didn't occur to me, and it doesn't have to be like, saying to a boy or a girl: 'You are Jewish, you are Muslim: come, be converted!'"
"We are not in the times of the crusades."
"In front of an unbeliever the last thing I have to do is try to convince him. Never."
"But listen: Never, never bring the gospel by proselytizing."
"If someone says they are a disciple of Jesus and comes to you with proselytism, they are not a disciple of Jesus."
"The Church does not grow by proselytism."

Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:19 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4999
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
When Francis talks like this it always reminds me of this, except he's the one down in the muck....

https://pics.me.me/really-if-youd-just-jump-in-you-would-become-so-25026905.png


That's a very "holier than thou" cartoon.


Matthew 21:31

"I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do."

Matthew 9:10-13

Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?"

When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’ For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

Matthew 11:19

"The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!"



It's funny how you're so ideologically possessed by that you don't "see" how these verses apply just as much to you at least as much, if not more, than however you claim that they apply to your ideological opponents.

You seriously think that you're not acting "holier than thou"? That
in your moral grandstanding you'ree somehow not treating an entire segment of people who's only aim is to conform themselves to Christ as prostitutes and tax collectors?

Even worse your self-righteous indignation is in defense of of a culture and a worldliness that Jesus expressly taught us not to conform to.

Sorry, but that halo on top of your head is not at all obvious from where I'm standing.

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:34 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40412
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Doom wrote:
This is probably going to sound uncharitable, but it sounds like Francis has been reading John Spong, in particular, the book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die", except that the Pope substitutes "rigidity" for every time Spong says "fundamentalism", but they both seem to mean the same thing.

Now, that's not fair. The Pope has been known to use the word "fundamentalism" as well!

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:17 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76478
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Highlander wrote:
More:

In a dialogue with Catholic high school students in Rome this weekend, Pope Francis responded to a question about how to deal with atheists and people of other faiths by saying that Christians should never proselytize — and any who do are not truly Christians.

The Pope's lengthy answer, reprinted in full at the bottom of this article, contained numerous notable remarks illustrating the Pope's views on evangelism, including:

[Speaking of having Jewish and Muslim friends]: "We are all the same, all children of God."
"It didn't occur to me, and it doesn't have to be like, saying to a boy or a girl: 'You are Jewish, you are Muslim: come, be converted!'"
"We are not in the times of the crusades."
"In front of an unbeliever the last thing I have to do is try to convince him. Never."
"But listen: Never, never bring the gospel by proselytizing."
"If someone says they are a disciple of Jesus and comes to you with proselytism, they are not a disciple of Jesus."
"The Church does not grow by proselytism."

Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus



When I read things like this, I am tempted to believe in the prophecy of St Malachy that Francis is "Peter the Roman", an arch heretic and Antichrist.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:03 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 956
Religion: Looking for answers
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
When Francis talks like this it always reminds me of this, except he's the one down in the muck....

https://pics.me.me/really-if-youd-just-jump-in-you-would-become-so-25026905.png


That's a very "holier than thou" cartoon.


Matthew 21:31

"I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do."

Matthew 9:10-13

Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?"

When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’ For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

Matthew 11:19

"The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!"



It's funny how you're so ideologically possessed by that you don't "see" how these verses apply just as much to you at least as much, if not more, than however you claim that they apply to your ideological opponents.

You seriously think that you're not acting "holier than thou"? That
in your moral grandstanding you'ree somehow not treating an entire segment of people who's only aim is to conform themselves to Christ as prostitutes and tax collectors?

Even worse your self-righteous indignation is in defense of of a culture and a worldliness that Jesus expressly taught us not to conform to.

Sorry, but that halo on top of your head is not at all obvious from where I'm standing.

It's got nothing to do with me, Gandolph, or you, it's about Pope Francis whom you criticised with that cartoon and saying that he's "down in the muck". I've shown you that Jesus chose to be with prostitutes and other sinners, whom the Pharisees described as "scum", sinners who know they are sinners not people who think they are righteous.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:15 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 956
Religion: Looking for answers
Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
When Francis talks like this it always reminds me of this, except he's the one down in the muck....

https://pics.me.me/really-if-youd-just-jump-in-you-would-become-so-25026905.png


That's a very "holier than thou" cartoon.


Matthew 21:31

"I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do."

Matthew 9:10-13

Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?"

When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’ For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

Matthew 11:19

"The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!"


Jesus told the prostitutes and sinners to repent he didn't tell them they were doing nothing wrong, least of all did he do what modern people do and condemn virgins for not being prostitutes

Those verses I posted are in defence of Pope Francis, showing how Jesus chose to be among prostitutes and other sinners, rather than those who think they are righteous. "What modern people do" is irrelevant.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:19 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 956
Religion: Looking for answers
Highlander wrote:
More:

In a dialogue with Catholic high school students in Rome this weekend, Pope Francis responded to a question about how to deal with atheists and people of other faiths by saying that Christians should never proselytize — and any who do are not truly Christians.

The Pope's lengthy answer, reprinted in full at the bottom of this article, contained numerous notable remarks illustrating the Pope's views on evangelism, including:

[Speaking of having Jewish and Muslim friends]: "We are all the same, all children of God."
"It didn't occur to me, and it doesn't have to be like, saying to a boy or a girl: 'You are Jewish, you are Muslim: come, be converted!'"
"We are not in the times of the crusades."
"In front of an unbeliever the last thing I have to do is try to convince him. Never."
"But listen: Never, never bring the gospel by proselytizing."
"If someone says they are a disciple of Jesus and comes to you with proselytism, they are not a disciple of Jesus."
"The Church does not grow by proselytism."

Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus

You have completely misunderstood, Highlander, because you have confused evangelising with proselytising. Pope Francis wants to encourage evangelising and discourage proselytising.

Denise Dee wrote:
Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:57 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 956
Religion: Looking for answers
Highlander wrote:
Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus

I saw a YouTube video of that a few weeks ago, it was beautiful, I cried. Here's why:
Denise Dee wrote:
My closest friend died 10 days ago. I have cried every day since then. She was an atheist, with a slight interest in Buddhism but although baptised and brought up in a Catholic family, she had absolutely no interest in Catholicism or Christianity. She clearly saw the contradictions in orthodox religion and had no time for it.

I sat with her brother looking at her corpse in the hospital room in which she died, just a few hours after she died. We both felt overwhelming love for her, we loved her for all the years we knew her during her life, even though she was often very difficult, she had problems and sometimes took out her frustrations on those closest to her, which we often didn't deserve. But we understood, and we forgave her, and we knew that underneath her sometimes harsh exterior was a very soft, fragile, loving heart, which often melted my heart, and other people's hearts.

As I sat gazing at the face of her corpse, with feelings of immense love for her, I said to her brother "We have overwhelming love for her, if you believe that God is love, can you imagine how much God loves her?"

At such times cold dry theories and doctrines and speculative theologies about who will or will not be "saved" from "eternal punishment" are entirely irrelevant. The feeling of overwhelming love for my friend outshone all else, answered all doubts.

I know that not all Catholics believe that "few will be saved" but can you imagine anyone who believes that "few will be saved" actually stating that belief to me and my friend's brother as we sat in the room with her (corpse) feeling immense love for her? Can you imagine a hospital chaplain coming into the room and stating his belief that only a few will be saved, we would have kicked him out and told him to wise up.

My deceased closest friend, who had no time for Christianity but whose death left a lot of people crying with love for her, is no exception. There are very many people like that, ordinary imperfect people who do not agree with teachings of Catholicism or Christianity, but who are not wicked. Any teaching which suggests that almost all of these people (with just possibly a tiny few exceptions) will be condemned by an infinitely merciful loving God to suffer eternal punishment is ludicrous beyond belief, and incredibly cruel to close friends and family members who may be susceptible to possibly believing such nonsense.

The fact that no responsible person who believes in the doctrine of "Only a few will be saved" would state this belief at the wake or funeral of a nonbeliever, shows that it is not the truth, because the truth is not something that needs to be hidden.

In all my experience of Catholicism and funerals, there are barely any Catholics who believe that God is not as loving and kind and merciful as we humans are. Ordinary Catholics are often wiser than some of those higher up in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Ordinary Catholics are often closer to their own hearts and their own humanity and do not live in ivory towers.


So, Highlander, would you care to spell out what exactly was wrong with Pope Francis telling a grieving boy that his atheist father is in heaven?

Have you heard of God's mercy?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:46 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13403
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
... So, Highlander, would you care to spell out what exactly was wrong with Pope Francis telling a grieving boy that his atheist father is in heaven?

Have you heard of God's mercy?

No.

Yes.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:20 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76478
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Last year, Pope Francis told a grieving boy that his late father was in heaven, despite the fact that he was an atheist, because he had his children baptized.

https://disrn.com/news/pope-says-christians-should-never-try-to-convert-unbelievers-anyone-who-proselytizes-is-not-a-disciple-of-jesus

I saw a YouTube video of that a few weeks ago, it was beautiful, I cried. Here's why:
Denise Dee wrote:
My closest friend died 10 days ago. I have cried every day since then. She was an atheist, with a slight interest in Buddhism but although baptised and brought up in a Catholic family, she had absolutely no interest in Catholicism or Christianity. She clearly saw the contradictions in orthodox religion and had no time for it.

I sat with her brother looking at her corpse in the hospital room in which she died, just a few hours after she died. We both felt overwhelming love for her, we loved her for all the years we knew her during her life, even though she was often very difficult, she had problems and sometimes took out her frustrations on those closest to her, which we often didn't deserve. But we understood, and we forgave her, and we knew that underneath her sometimes harsh exterior was a very soft, fragile, loving heart, which often melted my heart, and other people's hearts.

As I sat gazing at the face of her corpse, with feelings of immense love for her, I said to her brother "We have overwhelming love for her, if you believe that God is love, can you imagine how much God loves her?"

At such times cold dry theories and doctrines and speculative theologies about who will or will not be "saved" from "eternal punishment" are entirely irrelevant. The feeling of overwhelming love for my friend outshone all else, answered all doubts.

I know that not all Catholics believe that "few will be saved" but can you imagine anyone who believes that "few will be saved" actually stating that belief to me and my friend's brother as we sat in the room with her (corpse) feeling immense love for her? Can you imagine a hospital chaplain coming into the room and stating his belief that only a few will be saved, we would have kicked him out and told him to wise up.

My deceased closest friend, who had no time for Christianity but whose death left a lot of people crying with love for her, is no exception. There are very many people like that, ordinary imperfect people who do not agree with teachings of Catholicism or Christianity, but who are not wicked. Any teaching which suggests that almost all of these people (with just possibly a tiny few exceptions) will be condemned by an infinitely merciful loving God to suffer eternal punishment is ludicrous beyond belief, and incredibly cruel to close friends and family members who may be susceptible to possibly believing such nonsense.

The fact that no responsible person who believes in the doctrine of "Only a few will be saved" would state this belief at the wake or funeral of a nonbeliever, shows that it is not the truth, because the truth is not something that needs to be hidden.

In all my experience of Catholicism and funerals, there are barely any Catholics who believe that God is not as loving and kind and merciful as we humans are. Ordinary Catholics are often wiser than some of those higher up in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Ordinary Catholics are often closer to their own hearts and their own humanity and do not live in ivory towers.


So, Highlander, would you care to spell out what exactly was wrong with Pope Francis telling a grieving boy that his atheist father is in heaven?

Have you heard of God's mercy?



If everyone goes straight to heaven no matter what then Christianity is a complete joke and a total waste of time. Indeed there would be only two kinds of people in this world:

1. People who spend their entire lives indulging in the selfish pursuit of pleasure, looking out for #1 and saying to hell with everyone else
2. Complete morons

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pope on co redemptorix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:01 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6667
Religion: Christian
+1

_________________
But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 70 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: