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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:08 pm 
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OK. That's called (I think) an invalid conversion in logic. We can't go from saying "Nothing that is not a moral subject deserves Hell" to "All things that are moral subjects deserve Hell." In fact, we can't infer anything about who deserves Hell from the first statement. It might be that nothing deserves Hell, in which case the first statement is true but unnecessarily restrictive. It might be that some things that are moral subjects deserve Hell, but not all of them do. That, too, is consistent with the first statement. Or it might be that all moral subjects deserve Hell, which is again consistent with the first statement. But given the first statement alone, we can't tell which one of the other statements is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:40 pm 
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Man before the fall was a moral subject but didn't deserve hell.

If I say "A dog with spots is an animal" that doesn't mean that I think dogs without spots aren't animals.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Okay. Thanks to both of you for making that clear to me.

So, do babies deserve Hell?

And do unborn babies deserve Hell?

I'm not asking if they go to Hell, I'm asking do they deserve Hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:26 pm 
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After the Fall, yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:33 pm 
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I think it might help to clarify one of the words used here, and that is "deserve". It doesn't mean that everyone has done something, some act of their own, deserving of Hell. It has to do with our fallen nature.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:46 pm 
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I can also add that theologians have speculated that God in some way supplies to unborn children and babies whatever they may need to avoid Hell--that's where the hypothesis of Limbo comes from. But He hasn't told us enough to be sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:20 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
I think it might help to clarify one of the words used here, and that is "deserve". It doesn't mean that everyone has done something, some act of their own, deserving of Hell. It has to do with our fallen nature.

So what does “deserve” mean, in this context? Are you using a definition that’s in any dictionary?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:10 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
I think it might help to clarify one of the words used here, and that is "deserve". It doesn't mean that everyone has done something, some act of their own, deserving of Hell. It has to do with our fallen nature.

So what does “deserve” mean, in this context? Are you using a definition that’s in any dictionary?


Are you going to parse words the whole way of this discussion? It's the plain ordinary meaning of the word. You can substitute merit for deserve, if that's more acceptable to you. We don't merit the reward of heaven in a fallen state. The context is that of our fallen nature. We are undeserving, unworthy of heaven, of beatific vision if we fall from grace, or never have the stain of original sin removed by baptism.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:51 am 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
I think it might help to clarify one of the words used here, and that is "deserve". It doesn't mean that everyone has done something, some act of their own, deserving of Hell. It has to do with our fallen nature.

So what does “deserve” mean, in this context? Are you using a definition that’s in any dictionary?


Are you going to parse words the whole way of this discussion? It's the plain ordinary meaning of the word. You can substitute merit for deserve, if that's more acceptable to you. We don't merit the reward of heaven in a fallen state. The context is that of our fallen nature. We are undeserving, unworthy of heaven, of beatific vision if we fall from grace, or never have the stain of original sin removed by baptism.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

No I'm not going to parse words the whole way of this discussion. I asked you to define one word which you said needed to be clarified.

I'm not arguing about Heaven, it's the assertion that we all deserve Hell that I'm disagreeing with.

Do you think we all deserve unhappiness in this life on earth?

Do you think anyone deserves happiness in this life?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:34 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
No I'm not going to parse words the whole way of this discussion. I asked you to define one word which you said needed to be clarified.


Whatever.

Quote:
I'm not arguing about Heaven, it's the assertion that we all deserve Hell that I'm disagreeing with.


No one has suggested you were arguing about Heaven. You asked a question and that was part of my answer.

Do you believe in the existence of Hell? If not, why not? If so, define Hell as you understand it.

Quote:
Do you think we all deserve unhappiness in this life on earth? Do you think anyone deserves happiness in this life?


We can't avoid unhappiness, God allows good people to suffer, to be sad, to be unhappy, to die, because these things were brought into the world through disobedience. Suffering is part of our spiritual journey. God will comfort the good, and build them up through their tribulations. We are tried, tested, and strengthened through adversity (unhappiness, if you will). There is no perfect happiness in this life. If there were, what need would we have of Heaven? (That's a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to answer it.)


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:41 am 
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A small caveat on the rhetorical question: Man can indeed have need of heaven, because even the complete absence of physical suffering is in a way inferior to beatificl vision. Hence Heaven is superior to Eden.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:37 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
A small caveat on the rhetorical question: Man can indeed have need of heaven, because even the complete absence of physical suffering is in a way inferior to beatificl vision. Hence Heaven is superior to Eden.


Yes, of course it's superior, but that wasn't what I was talking about. You're approaching my question from an intellectual, philosophical, enlightened, and whatever other highbrow thing you can use to approach such a question. I'm approaching it from an everyday, common, realistic direction. Most people would be complacent, not seeking greater good, is what I'm saying. Most people don't know what beatific vision is. I, myself, never heard of it until well into my 40's.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:04 am 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
No I'm not going to parse words the whole way of this discussion. I asked you to define one word which you said needed to be clarified.


Whatever.

Quote:
I'm not arguing about Heaven, it's the assertion that we all deserve Hell that I'm disagreeing with.


No one has suggested you were arguing about Heaven. You asked a question and that was part of my answer.

Do you believe in the existence of Hell? If not, why not? If so, define Hell as you understand it.

Quote:
Do you think we all deserve unhappiness in this life on earth? Do you think anyone deserves happiness in this life?


We can't avoid unhappiness, God allows good people to suffer, to be sad, to be unhappy, to die, because these things were brought into the world through disobedience. Suffering is part of our spiritual journey. God will comfort the good, and build them up through their tribulations. We are tried, tested, and strengthened through adversity (unhappiness, if you will). There is no perfect happiness in this life. If there were, what need would we have of Heaven? (That's a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to answer it.)

My question was about deserving, Signum. I'm not talking about unrealistic and undefinable "perfect happiness", I just mean do you think anyone deserves to feel good, as opposed to feeling miserable, in this life, in this world?

Or do you think we all deserve to feel miserable in this life?

Do you try to make other people happy, make them feel good? There are people you deeply love, members of your family, friends, other people you love, do you want them to be happy, to feel good, to feel loved, in this life?

Do you think any of them deserve to feel good, to feel loved? Or do you think we all deserve to feel miserable, unhappy, unloved?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:24 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.
They weren't created as 'someone who doesn't accept the grace.' Are you a determinist?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:28 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jack3 is not saying that all human beings deserve Hell because we are moral subjects. What led you to see that in what he said?

Due to the fact that he said animals don’t deserve Hell because they are not moral subjects.
"Stones cannot fly. Ergo, all non-stones can fly."

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:03 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
My question was about deserving, Signum. I'm not talking about unrealistic and undefinable "perfect happiness", I just mean do you think anyone deserves to feel good, as opposed to feeling miserable, in this life, in this world?

Or do you think we all deserve to feel miserable in this life?

Do you try to make other people happy, make them feel good? There are people you deeply love, members of your family, friends, other people you love, do you want them to be happy, to feel good, to feel loved, in this life?

Do you think any of them deserve to feel good, to feel loved? Or do you think we all deserve to feel miserable, unhappy, unloved?


I see what you're trying to get at with this line of questioning, but that dog don't hunt. What I think people deserve or don't deserve doesn't influence God. My prayers might, in some small way, but my thoughts are not His concern. Who are we to say that a person's suffering and misery is unfair, unjust, and not redemptive? God's love and mercy are greater than a human's, but so is His justice and His knowledge of the human heart and soul. Just because you think a person deserves love, happiness, and mercy, doesn't mean that that's what they are going to get from their Creator. God's ways are not our ways.

I note that you didn't answer my question of you as to your beliefs regarding Hell. Please take the time to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:14 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
You're approaching my question from an intellectual, philosophical, enlightened, and whatever other highbrow thing you can use to approach such a question.

That's the influence of this forum on me :)

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:25 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
You're approaching my question from an intellectual, philosophical, enlightened, and whatever other highbrow thing you can use to approach such a question.

That's the influence of this forum on me :)


::):


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.
They weren't created as 'someone who doesn't accept the grace.' Are you a determinist?

It would seem so.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:18 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.
They weren't created as 'someone who doesn't accept the grace.' Are you a determinist?

No, I’m not a determinist. Either I can’t quite express what I’m trying to say or some of you are pretending not to understand what I’m trying to say. And maybe some of you really don’t understand what I’m trying to say.


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