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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:05 am 
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Journeyman
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.



This is such a stupid talking point, how could anyone possibly ask to be created? That isn't even a coherent thought.

They can't ask to be created, that's correct, so that means they didn't ask to be created, so where is the justice in someone who didn't ask to be created being sent to suffer in Hell for ever, whereas if their creation had never been imposed on them, they would not suffer in Hell.
. How can creation be "imposed"?

When something is done to a person when they didn't ask for it to be done to them and they didn't want it to be done to them (who would want to be created to suffer in Hell for ever and ever?), it's imposed on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:57 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.

So how does being moral subjects mean that all moral subjects deserve Hell? :scratch:

I think it doesn't.

You are contradicting yourself.

No. But I'll leave it to someone more well versed to respond to you on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:45 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.

So how does being moral subjects mean that all moral subjects deserve Hell? :scratch:

I think it doesn't.

You are contradicting yourself.

No. But I'll leave it to someone more well versed to respond to you on that.

Why can't you explain it? It was you who said it. Do you not understand what you said, or are you just parroting what you think someone else said without understanding?

That's a great tactic you've come up with there, jack3. The next time Signum challenges something I've said, I'll just say "No. But I'll leave it to someone more well versed to respond to you on that." I wonder what Signum would think if I did that! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:08 am 
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That a certain group of moral subjects are deserving of Hell doesn't mean that all moral subjects are deserving of Hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:09 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
The next time Signum challenges something I've said, I'll just say "No. But I'll leave it to someone more well versed to respond to you on that." I wonder what Signum would think if I did that! :mrgreen:


I think you are treading on thin ice. If you keep baiting me to suspend your account, I might just comply.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So how does being moral subjects mean that all moral subjects deserve Hell? :scratch:

I think it doesn't.

You are contradicting yourself.

No. But I'll leave it to someone more well versed to respond to you on that.

Why can't you explain it? It was you who said it. Do you not understand what you said, or are you just parroting what you think someone else said without understanding?

I am young and still learning. I do not know everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Jack3:

I am old and still learning about the faith! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
The next time Signum challenges something I've said, I'll just say "No. But I'll leave it to someone more well versed to respond to you on that." I wonder what Signum would think if I did that! :mrgreen:


I think you are treading on thin ice. If you keep baiting me to suspend your account, I might just comply.

It was a bit of lighthearted humour, Signum. I'll not make any more lighthearted humorous comments that involve you in any way.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That a certain group of moral subjects are deserving of Hell doesn't mean that all moral subjects are deserving of Hell.

I totally agree with the logic of that statement, Obi. But Doom and Signum have said we all deserve Hell:
Doom wrote:
Everyone deserves to go to hell, it is only by the grace of God that some avoid that fate
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

And jack3 agreed with them, and you, Obi, appeared to agree with jack3, and the assertion of Doom and Signum that “We all deserve Hell”. But now you seem to be saying or suggesting that not all moral subjects deserve Hell. And yet we are all moral subjects, so you appear to be suggesting that some moral subjects don’t deserve Hell while simultaneously agreeing with the assertion that we all deserve Hell. That appears to be a contradiction. Do you agree with Doom and Signum (and jack3) that we all deserve Hell or do you think that not all moral subjects deserve Hell?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:58 pm 
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And yet we are all moral subjects, so you appear to be suggesting that some moral subjects don’t deserve Hell while simultaneously agreeing with the assertion that we all deserve Hell.
No, I said that it is possible that some moral subjects don't deserve Hell, not that it is necessarily so. "All", "some", and "none" are all possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:02 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
And yet we are all moral subjects, so you appear to be suggesting that some moral subjects don’t deserve Hell while simultaneously agreeing with the assertion that we all deserve Hell.
No, I said that it is possible that some moral subjects don't deserve Hell, not that it is necessarily so. "All", "some", and "none" are all possible.

Then I agree with you!

What do you say now, jack3?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
And yet we are all moral subjects, so you appear to be suggesting that some moral subjects don’t deserve Hell while simultaneously agreeing with the assertion that we all deserve Hell.
No, I said that it is possible that some moral subjects don't deserve Hell, not that it is necessarily so. "All", "some", and "none" are all possible.

Then I agree with you!

What do you say now, jack3?


jack3 has already deferred to Fr. Kenobi. This isn't a "gotcha", as you seem to believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:26 pm 
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I admit I don't see what the point of this argument is supposed to be. Denise, can you explain the implications you see?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:47 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
And yet we are all moral subjects, so you appear to be suggesting that some moral subjects don’t deserve Hell while simultaneously agreeing with the assertion that we all deserve Hell.
No, I said that it is possible that some moral subjects don't deserve Hell, not that it is necessarily so. "All", "some", and "none" are all possible.

Then I agree with you!

What do you say now, jack3?


jack3 has already deferred to Fr. Kenobi. This isn't a "gotcha", as you seem to believe.

I don’t believe it’s a “gotcha”, Signum. Obi and jack3 are combining to bamboozle me! Not intentionally, of course. There’s something I’m not following. (If it was intentional it would be quite funny, how well they are doing it!)


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Or there's something we're not following. There's a step in your argument that must seem so obvious to you that you don't have to state it, but I'm not seeing it at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
If you think beloved friends and family deserve Hell, do you think our beloved pets, such as cats and dogs, deserve Hell?

They don't even deserve to exist after death

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Or there's something we're not following. There's a step in your argument that must seem so obvious to you that you don't have to state it, but I'm not seeing it at all.


Jack3 wrote:
Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.


Animals don't deserve Hell because they are not moral subjects.

You agreed.

Thus jack3 appears to be saying that all human beings deserve Hell because we are moral subjects.

If we weren't moral subjects, we wouldn't deserve Hell (nor Heaven), according to jack3's reasoning.

Then Obi you said it's possible that some moral subjects don't deserve Hell.

Animals are not moral subjects, it is humans who are moral subjects. Therefore, Obi, if it is possible that some moral subjects don't deserve Hell, then that's the same as saying it's possible that some humans don't deserve Hell.

But Doom and Signum said we all deserve Hell, and jack3 appeared to agree, and you appeared to agree with jack3.

So Obi, are you agreeing with Signum and Doom that all humans deserve Hell, or do you think it is possible that some humans don't deserve Hell? The two things don't seem to be compatible.

So are any of those steps in my logic wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If you think beloved friends and family deserve Hell, do you think our beloved pets, such as cats and dogs, deserve Hell?

They don't even deserve to exist after death

Okay. Do humans deserve to exist after death? If so, why do humans deserve to exist after death?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Jack3 is not saying that all human beings deserve Hell because we are moral subjects. What led you to see that in what he said?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jack3 is not saying that all human beings deserve Hell because we are moral subjects. What led you to see that in what he said?

Due to the fact that he said animals don’t deserve Hell because they are not moral subjects.


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