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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:35 pm 
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Yes, there are times when people are no longer able to act in freedom because of what was done to them (in which case they are no longer morally responsible). Do you think that this is always the reason that people do bad things?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Yes, there are times when people are no longer able to act in freedom because of what was done to them (in which case they are no longer morally responsible). Do you think that this is always the reason that people do bad things?

I don't know.

It's very reckless to say that when somebody does something wicked, that it's their own fault, without knowing whether it is or not.

There's obviously something wrong with people who do wicked things. There's a saying, I don't know how theologically sound you think it is: "Condemn the sin, not the sinner", or "Hate the sin, love the sinner".


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:04 pm 
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In any particular case, I am very slow to assess how responsible someone is, if I need to make that assessment at all.

Is it reckless to say that when someone does something good, it's just because they were raised right?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In any particular case, I am very slow to assess how responsible someone is, if I need to make that assessment at all.

Is it reckless to say that when someone does something good, it's just because they were raised right?

No, because saying "it's because they were raised right" won't do any harm.

(I've often heard people say it's because they were raised right, or words to that effect, but I've never heard anyone say it's JUST because they were raised right.)


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am 
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This has been a running PSA campaign from Ron Reagan and the "Freedom From Religion Foundation."

https://youtu.be/7FPhnhn8ud8

"I'm an atheist, and I'm not afraid of burning in hell."

But nevermind....no one would say such a thing.... that's just crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:15 am 
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We need to pray much for unbelievers. :pray:


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:43 am 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
We need to pray much for unbelievers. :pray:


Absolutely.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:30 am 
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From the adapted play "The Sunset Limited"

https://youtu.be/k5pzgX_Hebg

I can tell you from experience that I know atheists who follow and adhere to the same point of view that Tommy Lee Jones' character does.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:10 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
No, because saying "it's because they were raised right" won't do any harm.

(I've often heard people say it's because they were raised right, or words to that effect, but I've never heard anyone say it's JUST because they were raised right.)

Perhaps unintentionally, but I don’t think you ever respond to any of my posts.

Here is hoping you do.

What you’ve said truly resonates with me. I am very uncomfortable coming to conclusions about people. But, like many things human, it’s messy and complicated. People who’ve had bad things done to them don’t unfold the way we always think. I could probably check off most boxes if a psyche evaluation was done and I could tell you that I was raised in the same home as my cousins who……let’s just say they had it better than I did in many ways. And I don’t make that conclusion lightly; I was with them at home and went to the same school, ate the same food, same friends, just about everything. Perhaps something was done to them privately? Even so, the same was done to me and perhaps even more. My point is that let’s just say one was able to tally up the amount of wrong done and you compared it side by side. What do you think it would say about me and my cousins? What would you conclude? On paper, I should have become any number of things, but I didn’t. My cousins on the other hand took a different path and wreaked havoc, violent, went to jail, drugs, the whole thing. And I don’t say this to be boastful because I couldn’t exactly tell you how this could be, and I didn’t particularly live a Godly life and wasn’t even religious for that matter. It just comes to show that people respond differently to situations. Sometimes, damaged people stagnant or fall to their weaknesses when all you can see is their pain. They are more than just their pain and I can tell that as much as I may have hated it at the time, I got the most out of people who pushed me and didn’t just allow me to remain as I was.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:15 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
No, because saying "it's because they were raised right" won't do any harm.

(I've often heard people say it's because they were raised right, or words to that effect, but I've never heard anyone say it's JUST because they were raised right.)

Perhaps unintentionally, but I don’t think you ever respond to any of my posts.

Here is hoping you do.

What you’ve said truly resonates with me. I am very uncomfortable coming to conclusions about people. But, like many things human, it’s messy and complicated. People who’ve had bad things done to them don’t unfold the way we always think. I could probably check off most boxes if a psyche evaluation was done and I could tell you that I was raised in the same home as my cousins who……let’s just say they had it better than I did in many ways. And I don’t make that conclusion lightly; I was with them at home and went to the same school, ate the same food, same friends, just about everything. Perhaps something was done to them privately? Even so, the same was done to me and perhaps even more. My point is that let’s just say one was able to tally up the amount of wrong done and you compared it side by side. What do you think it would say about me and my cousins? What would you conclude? On paper, I should have become any number of things, but I didn’t. My cousins on the other hand took a different path and wreaked havoc, violent, went to jail, drugs, the whole thing. And I don’t say this to be boastful because I couldn’t exactly tell you how this could be, and I didn’t particularly live a Godly life and wasn’t even religious for that matter. It just comes to show that people respond differently to situations. Sometimes, damaged people stagnant or fall to their weaknesses when all you can see is their pain. They are more than just their pain and I can tell that as much as I may have hated it at the time, I got the most out of people who pushed me and didn’t just allow me to remain as I was.

Yes it is complicated, but there are clearly people who are born and raised in dreadful circumstances who are victims of what was done TO them, which can mitigate what may be considered sinful behaviour, e.g. they fall into addiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:14 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Yes it is complicated, but there are clearly people who are born and raised in dreadful circumstances who are victims of what was done TO them, which can mitigate what may be considered sinful behaviour, e.g. they fall into addiction.


I can be born into and raised in dreadful circumstances and be a victim of all sorts of things that were done to me, but what I do with those circumstances and however I allow them to affect me, where I allow them to take me, or how I allow them to control me is entirely my own decision.

Spiritual slavery isn't something that just happens to you, you choose it, either consciously (positively) or unconsciously (by omission, passivity, or complacency).

The will is much more involved in these situations than what you're giving it credit for.

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"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:32 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Yes it is complicated, but there are clearly people who are born and raised in dreadful circumstances who are victims of what was done TO them, which can mitigate what may be considered sinful behaviour, e.g. they fall into addiction.


I was intending to point to just that. Things were done TO ME. I was beaten, abused, etc. We should be compassionate toward these people. We should be there for them. We should help them....etc......all that. But we should also tell them to stop sinning and the second part is sometimes left out. Sin is only making their pain worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:34 am 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
I can be born into and raised in dreadful circumstances and be a victim of all sorts of things that were done to me, but what I do with those circumstances and however I allow them to affect me, where I allow them to take me, or how I allow them to control me is entirely my own decision.

Spiritual slavery isn't something that just happens to you, you choose it, either consciously (positively) or unconsciously (by omission, passivity, or complacency).

The will is much more involved in these situations than what you're giving it credit for.


Well said...

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Yes it is complicated, but there are clearly people who are born and raised in dreadful circumstances who are victims of what was done TO them, which can mitigate what may be considered sinful behaviour, e.g. they fall into addiction.


I was intending to point to just that. Things were done TO ME. I was beaten, abused, etc. We should be compassionate toward these people. We should be there for them. We should help them....etc......all that. But we should also tell them to stop sinning and the second part is sometimes left out. Sin is only making their pain worse.

Dominic, they should tell YOU to stop sinning, and see if that works for you, and if it works, then after you have stopped sinning, you can tell them to stop sinning.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:35 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dominic, they should tell YOU to stop sinning, and see if that works for you, and if it works, then after you have stopped sinning, you can tell them to stop sinning.

Isn’t that what were talking about?

I don’t understand why you feel the need to make that distinction.

It sounds like one can’t say much of anything unless you know the fine details of a situation……Well, no….people speak of generalities all the time and it’s just common to nail that down when the situation permits. Leaving things too ambiguous and hurt friendly is far more problematic. In every academic discipline things are trying to get clearer, not less clearer……….and yes, more clearer may mean you hurt some feelings.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:24 am 
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Okay Dominic, I'm going to start telling people to "stop sinning".

I'll start with you:

Stop sinning Dominic!

Let me know if that works, and if so, I'll start telling other people to stop sinning.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:09 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Okay Dominic, I'm going to start telling people to "stop sinning".

I'll start with you:

Stop sinning Dominic!

Let me know if that works, and if so, I'll start telling other people to stop sinning.


Is the concept that fragile to you that you can't even get a little creative with it? As if that is how it played out in real life.

That was simply a basic direction.

You're projecting.

It's akin to some of the in vogue comments made by some non-theist in other forums. Where in form of correction is met with contempt.

It's plain silly. Especially given that they all behave and act out in a dogmatic way in the real world.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:30 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Okay Dominic, I'm going to start telling people to "stop sinning".

I'll start with you:

Stop sinning Dominic!

Let me know if that works, and if so, I'll start telling other people to stop sinning.


Is the concept that fragile to you that you can't even get a little creative with it? As if that is how it played out in real life.


I only used your words, Dominic. If I had got "a little creative" with your words, you may have said that's not what you said. You are in a better position to be "a little creative" about what you meant by your words than I am. So explain, with a little creativity, what you meant when you said "we should also tell them to stop sinning" if you didn't mean we should literally tell them to stop sinning, or words to that effect.

Who do you mean by "we" and who do you mean by "them"?

And how would you tell "them" to "stop sinning" without using the words "stop sinning" or words to that effect?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I only used your words, Dominic. If I had got "a little creative" with your words, you may have said that's not what you said. You are in a better position to be "a little creative" about what you meant by your words than I am. So explain, with a little creativity, what you meant when you said "we should also tell them to stop sinning" if you didn't mean we should literally tell them to stop sinning, or words to that effect.

Who do you mean by "we" and who do you mean by "them"?

And how would you tell "them" to "stop sinning" without using the words "stop sinning" or words to that effect?


I'm sure you are aware that situations are dealt with particulars in mind. That is the modus operandi of human interaction. And yes, that should entail letting them know that they should rectify their life by doing God's will.

I can't imagine you weren't aware this is how it goes down in every day human conversation. You know this.

So I suspect you may have some presuppositions about religious people [or Christians to be more specific] to have to ask for such details.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:13 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I only used your words, Dominic. If I had got "a little creative" with your words, you may have said that's not what you said. You are in a better position to be "a little creative" about what you meant by your words than I am. So explain, with a little creativity, what you meant when you said "we should also tell them to stop sinning" if you didn't mean we should literally tell them to stop sinning, or words to that effect.

Who do you mean by "we" and who do you mean by "them"?

And how would you tell "them" to "stop sinning" without using the words "stop sinning" or words to that effect?


I'm sure you are aware that situations are dealt with particulars in mind. That is the modus operandi of human interaction. And yes, that should entail letting them know that they should rectify their life by doing God's will.

I can't imagine you weren't aware this is how it goes down in every day human conversation. You know this.

So I suspect you may have some presuppositions about religious people [or Christians to be more specific] to have to ask for such details.

It's not that I'm not aware of how some people tell other people what they should and should not do, I'm questioning whether or not it's helpful. Does it work? Just because something occurs "in every day human conversation" doesn't mean it's a good way to behave.

Is telling people "to stop sinning" a good way to behave? If you didn't mean literally telling "them" to stop sinning, using the words "stop sinning", what words would you use instead? How would you go about telling "them" to stop sinning?

And you still haven't told me who you mean by "them" or who you mean by "we".


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