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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

I don't believe that God "creates" weaknesses in humans that "cause" them to reject Him. Since you believe otherwise, I would be interested to see some examples from you.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

I don't believe that God "creates" weaknesses in humans that "cause" them to reject Him. Since you believe otherwise, I would be interested to see some examples from you.

He creates human beings with weaknesses. Some weaknesses, according to traditional Catholics, are what cause people to fail to do whatever is required to avoid Hell. He creates other people, according to traditional Catholics, with whatever it is that enables them to do whatever is required to avoid Hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:00 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

Do you look at people you love and think "You deserve Hell"?

I look at people I love and think "You're wonderful".

I couldn't look at people I love and think "You're wonderful, but you deserve Hell".


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:18 pm 
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no matter what "weaknesses" with which the Creator endowed them

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:34 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

I don't believe that God "creates" weaknesses in humans that "cause" them to reject Him. Since you believe otherwise, I would be interested to see some examples from you.

He creates human beings with weaknesses. Some weaknesses, according to traditional Catholics, are what cause people to fail to do whatever is required to avoid Hell. He creates other people, according to traditional Catholics, with whatever it is that enables them to do whatever is required to avoid Hell.


I asked for specific examples of such weaknesses. You have given none.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:41 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

Do you look at people you love and think "You deserve Hell"?

I look at people I love and think "You're wonderful".

I couldn't look at people I love and think "You're wonderful, but you deserve Hell".


You have a singular penchant for repeating things that no one has said.

I look at people I love and hope that they know, love, and serve God. I hope they will go to heaven. I can't save them from hell, only Christ can do that, but they have to participate in their salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I never said it's bad for someone to be created with weaknesses.

I said it's bad for a creator to create someone with the weaknesses that cause a person to end up in hell suffering for eternity because they were created like that, when they never consented to being created with those weaknesses - so how by any stretch of the imagination could anyone claim that the person who never consented to being created with those weaknesses "deserves to go to hell"?


We all deserve hell.

Do you look at people you love and think "You deserve Hell"?

I look at people I love and think "You're wonderful".

I couldn't look at people I love and think "You're wonderful, but you deserve Hell".


You have a singular penchant for repeating things that no one has said.

I look at people I love and hope that they know, love, and serve God. I hope they will go to heaven. I can't save them from hell, only Christ can do that, but they have to participate in their salvation.

You hope they will go to heaven but you think they deserve Hell.

When I think about my close friend who died in September, I totally believe she deserves happiness. She suffered enough in this life.

It would be grotesque and ugly for me to think that I hope she goes to heaven but actually she deserves to suffer in Hell for ever.

The doctrine of Hell is very ugly.


Last edited by Denise Dee on Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:20 pm 
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If you think beloved friends and family deserve Hell, do you think our beloved pets, such as cats and dogs, deserve Hell?

I am not asking if cats and dogs can go to Hell, that's an irrelevant question in this discussion, I'm asking do you think cats and dogs DESERVE Hell?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Kudos to Jack3.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.

By this argument, there is no room for evil of any sort at all in the world, ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.



This is such a stupid talking point, how could anyone possibly ask to be created? That isn't even a coherent thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.



This is such a stupid talking point, how could anyone possibly ask to be created? That isn't even a coherent thought.

They can't ask to be created, that's correct, so that means they didn't ask to be created, so where is the justice in someone who didn't ask to be created being sent to suffer in Hell for ever, whereas if their creation had never been imposed on them, they would not suffer in Hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:41 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.

So how does being moral subjects mean that all moral subjects deserve Hell? :scratch:

You deserve to suffer for ever and ever just because you're a moral subject? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:47 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.

By this argument, there is no room for evil of any sort at all in the world, ever.

I think it means there is no room for eternal evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:03 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Setting aside the issue of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, everyone who reaches the age of reason receives sufficient grace for salvation.

But those who don't accept the grace never chose to be created as someone who doesn't accept the grace.



This is such a stupid talking point, how could anyone possibly ask to be created? That isn't even a coherent thought.

They can't ask to be created, that's correct, so that means they didn't ask to be created, so where is the justice in someone who didn't ask to be created being sent to suffer in Hell for ever, whereas if their creation had never been imposed on them, they would not suffer in Hell.
. How can creation be "imposed"?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:07 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.

So how does being moral subjects mean that all moral subjects deserve Hell? :scratch:

I think it doesn't.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:00 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Animals deserve neither eternal reward not punishment; they are not moral subjects.

So how does being moral subjects mean that all moral subjects deserve Hell? :scratch:

I think it doesn't.

You are contradicting yourself.


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