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 Post subject: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:28 pm 
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I came across the story of the Pope saying he was bitter because a young lady was excited to show him two people she had helped convert to Catholicism. He makes a comment that he thought she was showing them off as trophies and it evoked some bitterness in him.

I'm not making this up.
I remember when I watched Fr. James Martin on Lawrence O'Donnell's show with Penn Jillette. When asked by O'Donnell if he could convert Penn from atheism, Fr. Martin replies (paraphrased) "as we already know, the Pope has stated that attempts at conversion are pious nonsense".

The 'pious nonsense' part is not paraphrased. That is what Martin said verbatim. That part stuck clearly in my mind.... because I doubted it. Why would any Pope claim that attempting to convert someone is 'pious nonsense'. You certainly wouldn't feel that what if Catholicism was the Truth.

So while I doubted it at one point, hearing the Pope's comments on the converts he met as leaving him 'bitter' makes me think that Martin was telling the truth.

And speaking of Martin and the Pope now Martin's running around saying how in his meeting with the Pope that Francis actually supports his mission. His mission to undermine the Catholic Church's teaching on 'human relations'.

When the Pope met with that American lady who denied the marriage license he was very quick to quell any notion that he supported what she did. Saying that it was a mere formality and his being seen with her was not in any way supporting her. What a thing to say about a faithful Catholic who had already been dragged through the mud.

But does he quell any concern when he was seen with Martin? Not at all.... as a matter of fact Martin gave a talk saying how the Pope wants Martin to continue his ministry "in peace".

Martin recently posted that comment about how "interesting" it was that (in his incorrect view) that the Bible once "sanctioned" slavery.... so maybe it's judgment on that other contentious issue is incorrect. That Biblical judgment is incorrect.


I don't want to turn this all about James Martin. But this is who the Pope was happy to meet?

Leaving aside all of the Pachama buffoonery and that Amazonian Synod.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:44 pm 
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I encourage you to post links to credible sources about Father Martin's meeting with the Pope and about any comments you think were made by Pope Francis. It's fine to ask questions and make observations, but all reading, including lurkers, need to know that anyone who posts here can back up their comments.

Father Martin meeting Pope Francis, with a comment about how the Vatican handles similar meetings.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/po ... at-vatican


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.


What an absurd comment to make.
I've been greatly struggling to make sense of what is going on and for you to make this comment not knowing one ounce of what I've been struggling with.

Okay Wise Ol' Denise.... explain to me what is happening aside from silly comments like the one you just made.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:23 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.

Please, for the benefit of Amon, any lurkers who may be out there, and the rest of us poor souls so “lacking in understanding,” enlighten us, DeeDee. Share with us your “understanding of what Pope Francis is doing.” As requested above, please also provide source links.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:20 pm 
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I don't know if Francis is practicing his office well or ill. I do know that, for me, he is a very confusing Pope. And, if others feel the same, he is shaking the stability of our faith and causing us distress as we attempt to practice it.

HST, yes, it would be nice to have citations about the statements presented in the OP. Much of what was purported sounds unlikely.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:35 pm 
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What a thing to say about a faithful Catholic who had already been dragged through the mud.
She isn't Catholic.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:46 pm 
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Post those Pope Francis quotes that connect to the negative comments.

Imagine sitting across from Pope Francis and saying these things. What would he say?

"How am I confusing?"

"How am I bad?"

The Pope is the Holy Father. Imagine writing some of this about some wealthy person who might arrange for someone to get some official correspondence from his lawyer.

I sincerely believe the Pope wants to hear some constructive things from anyone but not something vague or disrespectful.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:06 pm 
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I actually like PF quite a bit. I'm not sure if that endorsement would help or hurt his case, though . . . :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:40 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
I sincerely believe the Pope wants to hear some constructive things from anyone but not something vague or disrespectful.

Are you aware of the dubia? Never answered. Except by someone--obviously not Francis--who genuinely was a good pope: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... -answered/

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:03 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.

Please, for the benefit of Amon, any lurkers who may be out there, and the rest of us poor souls so “lacking in understanding,” enlighten us, DeeDee. Share with us your “understanding of what Pope Francis is doing.” As requested above, please also provide source links.

http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomo ... udium.html


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:23 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.

Please, for the benefit of Amon, any lurkers who may be out there, and the rest of us poor souls so “lacking in understanding,” enlighten us, DeeDee. Share with us your “understanding of what Pope Francis is doing.” As requested above, please also provide source links.

http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomo ... udium.html


She wants you to tell us in your own words, DD, with the links as backup. Posting a link in response doesn't give us an idea of your understanding, or lack thereof.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:43 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.


So, an elect few, knowledgeable in special rites and mysteries, understand. I don't. And not willfully nor ignorantly.

Must be nice to be so assured.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:50 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
I sincerely believe the Pope wants to hear some constructive things from anyone but not something vague or disrespectful.

Are you aware of the dubia? Never answered. Except by someone--obviously not Francis--who genuinely was a good pope: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... -answered/


I don't get it.

I admire Benedict immensely. But what do his answers have to do with an evaluation of Francis? Was he called upon to answer the dubia? Were they not already answered? And if they were presented to Francis, why would Benedict answer them?

Sadly, compared to others, I'm confused.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.


So, an elect few, knowledgeable in special rites and mysteries, understand. I don't. And not willfully nor ignorantly.

Must be nice to be so assured.

It's not an elect few, the vast majority of Catholics throughout the world approve of what Pope Francis is doing and trying to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:58 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
What a thing to say about a faithful Catholic who had already been dragged through the mud.
If you're referring to Kim Davis, she is not Catholic (nor particularly faithful).

She is part of the Apostolic Pentecostal movement and she has been married four times, divorced three, to three different men. She is now re-married to her second husband. All of this is contrary to the ethics of the Apostolic Pentecostal movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.

Please, for the benefit of Amon, any lurkers who may be out there, and the rest of us poor souls so “lacking in understanding,” enlighten us, DeeDee. Share with us your “understanding of what Pope Francis is doing.” As requested above, please also provide source links.

http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomo ... udium.html


She wants you to tell us in your own words, DD, with the links as backup. Posting a link in response doesn't give us an idea of your understanding, or lack thereof.

If you want to understand Pope Francis, read what Pope Francis says, not what I might say. It took Pope Francis many months to write that encyclical, you somewhat overestimate my ability if you think I could do better in five or ten minutes, or an hour or two, if I had that much time to spare, which I haven't. I have a life.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.


So, an elect few, knowledgeable in special rites and mysteries, understand. I don't. And not willfully nor ignorantly.

Must be nice to be so assured.

It's not an elect few, the vast majority of Catholics throughout the world approve of what Pope Francis is doing and trying to do.


I'm glad you cleared that up. I would ask to see substantiation of your statement, but I've learned that is a forlorn hope.

BTW, I congratulate you upon your mastery of ignoratio elenchi, in the broad class of relevance fallacies. And, again, I salute your adroit and unabashed, though obvious, commitment to argumentum ad nauseam. I had hoped for a little more artifice, but depend upon your consistency.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:13 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
I sincerely believe the Pope wants to hear some constructive things from anyone but not something vague or disrespectful.

Are you aware of the dubia? Never answered. Except by someone--obviously not Francis--who genuinely was a good pope: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... -answered/


I don't get it.

I admire Benedict immensely. But what do his answers have to do with an evaluation of Francis? Was he called upon to answer the dubia? Were they not already answered? And if they were presented to Francis, why would Benedict answer them?

Sadly, compared to others, I'm confused.

My point is that Francis can't be bothered to answer four cardinals of the Church who asked him obviously important questions in a deeply respectful way.

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