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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:02 pm 
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Prodigal Son of Thunder
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Amon98 wrote:
Respectfully, Pope Francis has known, named critics, so why not contact him and encourage him to do as you wrote?

Because I have no expectation that doing so would accomplish anything good.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But if you like, yes, I think he condoned it.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
theJack wrote:
Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?

You'll note I didn't use either word. I said, "countenanced," and if you have a better word for what went on at the synod, I'd love to hear it.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

Look, I know you think you measured your words and that you believe you've enough nuance to make this a justifiable claim. But you just accused the Pope of condoning idoloatry.

Wow.

I can't do this anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:44 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But if you like, yes, I think he condoned it.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
theJack wrote:
Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?

You'll note I didn't use either word. I said, "countenanced," and if you have a better word for what went on at the synod, I'd love to hear it.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

Look, I know you think you measured your words and that you believe you've enough nuance to make this a justifiable claim. But you just accused the Pope of condoning idoloatry.

Wow.

I can't do this anymore.


You have a better word for what went on? Let's hear it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:03 pm 
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I agree with Siggy. What the Pope was thinking, I don't know, since he hasn't said. But what I saw looked like condoning idolatry, and I am not alone in that opinion. If that wasn't what happened ... what did you see happening?

I am not saying that he is an idolater. But the best I can say is that I cannot understand why he had anything to do with the Pachamama aspects of the synod, and that he let us down by doing so. In other words, at the very best, bad judgment, made worse because he won't say anything about it, leaving everyone to draw their own conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:44 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But if you like, yes, I think he condoned it.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
theJack wrote:
Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?

You'll note I didn't use either word. I said, "countenanced," and if you have a better word for what went on at the synod, I'd love to hear it.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

Look, I know you think you measured your words and that you believe you've enough nuance to make this a justifiable claim. But you just accused the Pope of condoning idoloatry.

Wow.

I can't do this anymore.


You apparently aren't aware of the facts of the case.

These images of a pagan God were not merely placed in a church in Rome, but they were placed on the opposite side across from the altar, then the seats were rotated so that they were facing AWAY from the altar and towards the images. Some laity became outraged by this and removed the idols and threw them into the Tiber.

And how did Francis react to all this? He gave a speech heaping contempt and scorn on.....whom? The people who REMOVED the idols!

What is the best word for that, do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:53 pm 
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You missed the prayer service in the Vatican Garden. Fortunately, EC2 has provided links to articles: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... mony-60523

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:57 pm 
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Doom wrote:

You apparently aren't aware of the facts of the case.

These images of a pagan God were not merely placed in a church in Rome, but they were placed on the opposite side across from the altar, then the seats were rotated so that they were facing AWAY from the altar and towards the images. Some laity became outraged by this and removed the idols and threw them into the Tiber.

And how did Francis react to all this? He gave a speech heaping contempt and scorn on.....whom? The people who REMOVED the idols!

What is the best word for that, do you think?


You left out the part where he had the statues "rescued".


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You missed the prayer service in the Vatican Garden. Fortunately, EC2 has provided links to articles: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... mony-60523


That disturbs me less than Francis actually defending the use of the idols and attacking those who opposed their use.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:29 pm 
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In reading about the garden ceremony, I wonder if the Pope was blind sided. His decision not to make his prepared remarks, and to offer the Our Father instead, may indicate unease with what was happening.

Nevertheless, some of the actions in that garden ceremony in the Vatican are deeply disturbing. The Popes presence, more so.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:21 pm 
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I agree that it seems he was not easy with it; still, it was not a good look and I wish he had said, "I didn't anticipate all of that," or some such thing. It might have looked like throwing people under the bus, but I still would like to have seen even a mildly-worded statement saying that the whole thing hadn't gone as planned. And I would have been even happier if the idols had never been seen again after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:25 pm 
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And if the Holy Father's writeup when he's done addresses these issues, I will be profoundly grateful and withdraw my objections.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:44 pm 
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But he shouldn't have been blindsided. Heck the Italian bishops had already composed an idolatrous prayer to Pachamama.

The problem, and one lost upon some here apparently, is not fraternal correction of the pope (many have tried), but repair of the scandal he has wrought.

People need to here "No, you don't grind axes against people and gossip. It doesn't matter that the pope has from the pulpit" "No, Christ did not set aside His divinity. Oh Scalfari interviewed him and the pope said it? Well Scalfari cannot be trusted. Well the pope has gjven him numerous interviews despite each one causing scandal? Well I cannot say what his intent was, but the reported interviews are wrong, regardless of if the pope said it and yes, if Scalfari cannot be trusted, the pope shouldn't talk to him. But he doez, who knows why?"

I need to be able to say when I teach that no, you cannot continue in a state of mortal sin and receive communion. "But what if keeping the moral law here is real hard? The pope said not all can keep it" and I need to be able to say "God gives all sufficient means to keep the law. " And I need to be able to defend my gainsaying the pope.

Ditto on the death penalty, the impossibility of pleasing God without faith, the defective nature of other religions (and that there is one true faith revealed by God) and many other issues where authentic Catholic doctrine is flatly contradicted or seemingly contradicted, whether in off the cufc remarks or even in more authoratative instruments

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:34 am 
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No to clericalizing the laity
Setting aside his prepared text, Pope Francis warned against the danger of what he termed as “clericalizing the laity”. Sometimes, he said, permanent deacons, who are to be the custodians of service in dioceses, soon find themselves “looking at the altar” and end up as “wannaby priests”. Work with the laity but don’t clericalize them, the Pope said. "Move the deacons away from the altar… They are the custodians of service, not first-class altar boys or second-class priests,” he added.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news ... enary.html

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

OK, it's a news report, so who knows what happened? But first there's the attack on the deacons themselves, who he calls "wanna-be priests." That's your open, inviting, compassionate, loving pontiff for you. Second, there's the apparent belief that deacons are laymen. Which, I mean, is--if he actually said this and it wasn't misreported--a pretty stunning mistake. Third, there's the effortless way in which he waves away the role of permanent deacons in the novus ordo. Why would anyone think this is a bad pope? Hard to imagine.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:36 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I agree that it seems he was not easy with it; still, it was not a good look and I wish he had said, "I didn't anticipate all of that," or some such thing. It might have looked like throwing people under the bus, but I still would like to have seen even a mildly-worded statement saying that the whole thing hadn't gone as planned. And I would have been even happier if the idols had never been seen again after that.

Right. He'd never throw anyone under the bus.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:06 am 
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Some he might have to throw in the salad shooter instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:16 am 
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:swoon

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:37 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Some he might have to throw in the salad shooter instead.



"salad shooter"? I say again, "salad shooter"?

Gentlemen,

This reminds of the "armchair general" discussions out there. "I say, Smithers. If I was in charge I would have... so on and so forth, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:04 pm 
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long running inside joke between the board and the pickle, amon

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:05 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
long running inside joke between the board and the pickle, amon



Ah, yes. The old long-running joke. I am now fully informed. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:18 pm 
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