Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 12 of 18   [ 347 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 18  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:09 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76365
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?



Tell me, how many times did Jesus, the founder of the Catholic Church, force people to hear Him?


You are just jumping from one extreme to its opposite. There are a lot of options in between.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:19 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 8631
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
Amon98 wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Ammon:

When Jesus whipped the money changers out of the temple.



Should Pope Francis start whipping people :)


Only with the gentle whip of correction. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:33 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73542
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Amon98 wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Ammon:

When Jesus whipped the money changers out of the temple.



Should Pope Francis start whipping people :)


Is he a shepherd?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:41 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?



Tell me, how many times did Jesus, the founder of the Catholic Church, force people to hear Him?


You are just jumping from one extreme to its opposite. There are a lot of options in between.



Why avoid the question? Nothing extreme there. Should Pope Francis order the beat-down of dissenters and troublemakers? Look at Hans Kung. One man. From the Washington Post:

"Kung, who is seen by Catholics and non-Catholics as the leading symbol of reform in Roman Catholicism, has challenged the church's ban on birth control, its refusal to admit women and married men to the priesthood and its exclusion of divorced and remarried Catholics from the sacraments. But it was his questioning of papal infallibility which, a decade ago, began a long-running battle with the Vatican's Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

"The battle came to a climax just before Christmas two years ago with the Vatican decree, signed by Pope John Paul II, revoking Kung's authority to teach as a Catholic theologian."


"leading symbol of reform"? Really?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:42 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Signum Crucis wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Ammon:

When Jesus whipped the money changers out of the temple.



Should Pope Francis start whipping people :)


Is he a shepherd?



I sense a double entendre... is that a trick question?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:47 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73542
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Amon98 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Ammon:

When Jesus whipped the money changers out of the temple.



Should Pope Francis start whipping people :)


Is he a shepherd?



I sense a double entendre... is that a trick question?


You'll have to explain what you're talking about, because I don't get your sense. It's a legitimate question.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:48 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83042
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?



Tell me, how many times did Jesus, the founder of the Catholic Church, force people to hear Him?

That's not an answer.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:51 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Signum Crucis wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Ammon:

When Jesus whipped the money changers out of the temple.



Should Pope Francis start whipping people :)


Is he a shepherd?



I sense a double entendre... is that a trick question?


You'll have to explain what you're talking about, because I don't get your sense. It's a legitimate question.



I don't get the accurate - meaning, as you intended it - meaning behind the question: "Is he a shepherd?" As in, So, what does a shepherd do?

Just trying to avoid any misunderstanding.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:51 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76365
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Amon98 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?



Tell me, how many times did Jesus, the founder of the Catholic Church, force people to hear Him?


You are just jumping from one extreme to its opposite. There are a lot of options in between.



Why avoid the question? Nothing extreme there. Should Pope Francis order the beat-down of dissenters and troublemakers? Look at Hans Kung. One man. From the Washington Post:

"Kung, who is seen by Catholics and non-Catholics as the leading symbol of reform in Roman Catholicism, has challenged the church's ban on birth control, its refusal to admit women and married men to the priesthood and its exclusion of divorced and remarried Catholics from the sacraments. But it was his questioning of papal infallibility which, a decade ago, began a long-running battle with the Vatican's Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

"The battle came to a climax just before Christmas two years ago with the Vatican decree, signed by Pope John Paul II, revoking Kung's authority to teach as a Catholic theologian."


"leading symbol of reform"? Really?



It is not "avoiding your question" to point out that your question is based on the creation of a false dichtomy.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:53 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73542
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Amon98 wrote:

I don't get the accurate - meaning, as you intended it - meaning behind the question: "Is he a shepherd?" As in, So, what does a shepherd do?

Just trying to avoid any misunderstanding.


So, you don't want to answer this question either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:00 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83042
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I get the idea of supporting the pope (whichever pope it is), and those who have been on this board for a long time will tell you that I am very reluctant to criticize anyone in the hierarchy. But setting aside any other points of contentions that someone may have with Pope Francis, I cannot but think that the handling of the Amazon synod was bungled badly, causing great distress and confusion among faithful Catholics, and since the synod was called and hosted by the Holy See, Pope Francis cannot escape some measure of responsibility for it.

Jesus rebuked and corrected people who were in error.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:10 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Signum Crucis wrote:
Amon98 wrote:

I don't get the accurate - meaning, as you intended it - meaning behind the question: "Is he a shepherd?" As in, So, what does a shepherd do?

Just trying to avoid any misunderstanding.


So, you don't want to answer this question either.



OK. I'll give it a go. Pope Francis is limited in action. I wonder if anyone posting in this topic gets that. Generally, to avoid scandal, troublemakers are met with privately. Any problems or issues are discussed and the appropriate words are said, in this case, by the Pope. In the case of the Amazon Synod, word leaked out - purposely, it seems - that things were being discussed that Cardinal Sarah called an "insult to God" but that were unconfirmed while it was going on. Now the final Synod document has been handed in, and there is hand-wringing and anxiety from some Catholics because "did anybody see this coming" to, "Oh my God. Now it's going to happen."

It's not going to happen. Pope Francis has the final say. And it is unlikely that any words, or letters from him, that may be heard or received by any who voted for certain - outside their mandate - changes will get published.

I will say, the sky is not falling. And I have every reason to believe Pope Francis will take appropriate steps with the dissenters/troublemakers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:16 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I get the idea of supporting the pope (whichever pope it is), and those who have been on this board for a long time will tell you that I am very reluctant to criticize anyone in the hierarchy. But setting aside any other points of contentions that someone may have with Pope Francis, I cannot but think that the handling of the Amazon synod was bungled badly, causing great distress and confusion among faithful Catholics, and since the synod was called and hosted by the Holy See, Pope Francis cannot escape some measure of responsibility for it.

Jesus rebuked and corrected people who were in error.



Pope Francis gave the Amazon Synod members a certain mandate. When word reached Cardinal Sarah that they were talking about things outside that mandate, he reacted strongly but with a "if that's true" caveat. The final document is in and it's up to the Pope to decide when and how to assign blame and correction, which I believe you know is usually done privately. That's why I brought up the example of Hans Kung.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:29 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83042
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Let's be even more specific. You don't find countenancing idolatry troublesome in the least?

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:57 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76365
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I get the idea of supporting the pope (whichever pope it is), and those who have been on this board for a long time will tell you that I am very reluctant to criticize anyone in the hierarchy. But setting aside any other points of contentions that someone may have with Pope Francis, I cannot but think that the handling of the Amazon synod was bungled badly, causing great distress and confusion among faithful Catholics, and since the synod was called and hosted by the Holy See, Pope Francis cannot escape some measure of responsibility for it.

Jesus rebuked and corrected people who were in error.



Pope Francis gave the Amazon Synod members a certain mandate. When word reached Cardinal Sarah that they were talking about things outside that mandate, he reacted strongly but with a "if that's true" caveat. The final document is in and it's up to the Pope to decide when and how to assign blame and correction, which I believe you know is usually done privately. That's why I brought up the example of Hans Kung.



The synod was not something that just "happened" outside the Pope's control, rather Francis organized it, he hand picked the participants, set the agenda himself and it was held in the Vatican right under the Pope's nose. It is hardly true that he powerless to do anything to constrain it. This is like arguing that the POTUS is powerless to do anything to stop his own Defense Secretary from selling weapons to the enemy.

_________________
Excelsior!


Last edited by Doom on Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:27 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13270
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Let's be even more specific. You don't find countenancing idolatry troublesome in the least?

I recall that the reply to accusations of idolatry was, "Well, they aren't really idols. That are actually folk art. That, incidentally, people worship. See, not to worry."

I would add my usual Carthago delenda est -- or, "That's racist!", in modern parlance. But, in the case of criticism of the idols, I think my line was already used.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:51 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I get the idea of supporting the pope (whichever pope it is), and those who have been on this board for a long time will tell you that I am very reluctant to criticize anyone in the hierarchy. But setting aside any other points of contentions that someone may have with Pope Francis, I cannot but think that the handling of the Amazon synod was bungled badly, causing great distress and confusion among faithful Catholics, and since the synod was called and hosted by the Holy See, Pope Francis cannot escape some measure of responsibility for it.

Jesus rebuked and corrected people who were in error.



Pope Francis gave the Amazon Synod members a certain mandate. When word reached Cardinal Sarah that they were talking about things outside that mandate, he reacted strongly but with a "if that's true" caveat. The final document is in and it's up to the Pope to decide when and how to assign blame and correction, which I believe you know is usually done privately. That's why I brought up the example of Hans Kung.



The synod was not something that just "happened" outside the Pope's control, rather Francis organized it, he hand picked the participants, set the agenda himself and it was held in the Vatican right under the Pope's nose. It is hardly true that he powerless to drive anything to constrain it. This is like arguing that the POTUS is powerless to do anything to stop his own Defense Secretary from selling weapons to the enemy.




"selling weapons to the enemy"? A really, really bad comparison. So, what would you have done? Honestly.

So the Synod members are going off topic and you what? Take out a wooden ruler, tell them to put their hands on a desk, etc.?

Right before the final document is submitted, a Vatican monitor stands up and tells all who voted for this or that, "I am crossing out all the wrong things you voted on. I am telling the Pope the names of all who voted for these things." And followed by what?

Please describe what should have been done.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:11 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Let's be even more specific. You don't find countenancing idolatry troublesome in the least?


I believe you and others have legitimate concerns.

I work in the media and I am watching the Amazon Synod being used as yet another tool by the media to divide, if they can, the Church and to cause doubt. Secular news sources and what I can call fringe websites are all falling in line. Idolatry has occurred, they say. A signed statement from various concerned individuals has been posted. The Washington Post deserves to be singled out. In 2013, it was bought by Jeff Bezos, owner of amazon.com, currently valued at more than $900 billion. North American media outlets are currently in the hands of between 5 and 6 global corporations who can dictate content. That was not true 50 years ago.

That said, I think all everyone wants is the truth. That means researching and identifying legitimate outlets. I will single out the National Catholic Reporter as a non-Catholic outlet. It was in fact, asked to drop the word Catholic. Bishop Finn:

"My predecessor bishops have taken different approaches to the challenge. Bishop Charles Helmsing in October of 1968 issued a condemnation of the National Catholic Reporter and asked the publishers to remove the name “Catholic” from their title – to no avail. From my perspective, NCR’s positions against authentic Church teaching and leadership have not changed trajectory in the intervening decades.

"When early in my tenure I requested that the paper submit their bona fides as a Catholic media outlet in accord with the expectations of Church law, they declined to participate indicating that they considered themselves an “independent newspaper which commented on ‘things Catholic.’” At other times, correspondence has seemed to reach a dead end.

"In light of the number of recent expressions of concern, I have a responsibility as the local bishop to instruct the Faithful about the problematic nature of this media source which bears the name “Catholic.” While I remain open to substantive and respectful discussion with the legitimate representatives of NCR, I find that my ability to influence the National Catholic Reporter toward fidelity to the Church seems limited to the supernatural level. For this we pray: St. Francis DeSales, intercede for us."


So, where are you, meaning anyone here, getting your news?

I prefer Vatican News and the Catholic News Agency based on a proven track record: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... iver-46833


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:35 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76365
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Amon98 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I get the idea of supporting the pope (whichever pope it is), and those who have been on this board for a long time will tell you that I am very reluctant to criticize anyone in the hierarchy. But setting aside any other points of contentions that someone may have with Pope Francis, I cannot but think that the handling of the Amazon synod was bungled badly, causing great distress and confusion among faithful Catholics, and since the synod was called and hosted by the Holy See, Pope Francis cannot escape some measure of responsibility for it.

Jesus rebuked and corrected people who were in error.



Pope Francis gave the Amazon Synod members a certain mandate. When word reached Cardinal Sarah that they were talking about things outside that mandate, he reacted strongly but with a "if that's true" caveat. The final document is in and it's up to the Pope to decide when and how to assign blame and correction, which I believe you know is usually done privately. That's why I brought up the example of Hans Kung.



The synod was not something that just "happened" outside the Pope's control, rather Francis organized it, he hand picked the participants, set the agenda himself and it was held in the Vatican right under the Pope's nose. It is hardly true that he powerless to drive anything to constrain it. This is like arguing that the POTUS is powerless to do anything to stop his own Defense Secretary from selling weapons to the enemy.




"selling weapons to the enemy"? A really, really bad comparison. So, what would you have done? Honestly.

So the Synod members are going off topic and you what? Take out a wooden ruler, tell them to put their hands on a desk, etc.?

Right before the final document is submitted, a Vatican monitor stands up and tells all who voted for this or that, "I am crossing out all the wrong things you voted on. I am telling the Pope the names of all who voted for these things." And followed by what?

Please describe what should have been done.



What I'm saying is that they weren't going off topic they did exactly what Francis intended. If you didn't intend it it wouldn't have chosen the people he did to attend it.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:39 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 318
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I get the idea of supporting the pope (whichever pope it is), and those who have been on this board for a long time will tell you that I am very reluctant to criticize anyone in the hierarchy. But setting aside any other points of contentions that someone may have with Pope Francis, I cannot but think that the handling of the Amazon synod was bungled badly, causing great distress and confusion among faithful Catholics, and since the synod was called and hosted by the Holy See, Pope Francis cannot escape some measure of responsibility for it.

Jesus rebuked and corrected people who were in error.



Pope Francis gave the Amazon Synod members a certain mandate. When word reached Cardinal Sarah that they were talking about things outside that mandate, he reacted strongly but with a "if that's true" caveat. The final document is in and it's up to the Pope to decide when and how to assign blame and correction, which I believe you know is usually done privately. That's why I brought up the example of Hans Kung.



The synod was not something that just "happened" outside the Pope's control, rather Francis organized it, he hand picked the participants, set the agenda himself and it was held in the Vatican right under the Pope's nose. It is hardly true that he powerless to drive anything to constrain it. This is like arguing that the POTUS is powerless to do anything to stop his own Defense Secretary from selling weapons to the enemy.




"selling weapons to the enemy"? A really, really bad comparison. So, what would you have done? Honestly.

So the Synod members are going off topic and you what? Take out a wooden ruler, tell them to put their hands on a desk, etc.?

Right before the final document is submitted, a Vatican monitor stands up and tells all who voted for this or that, "I am crossing out all the wrong things you voted on. I am telling the Pope the names of all who voted for these things." And followed by what?

Please describe what should have been done.



What I'm saying is that they weren't going off topic they did exactly what Francis intended.




Having done as you say "what Pope Francis intended," what will be the outcome? You apparently know.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 12 of 18   [ 347 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 18  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


Jump to: