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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:51 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:32 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Pope Francis does not fear schism.

He should

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
What a sad and crazy Alice In Wonderland website this is, and how far down the rabbit hole most of you guys here have fallen if you think you're defending the Catholic faith by rubbishing the pope. You're in so deep, you don't even see it. Pope Francis is my pope. Who is your pope? You're your own pope.

Almost all the Catholics I know love Pope Francis, including a couple of priests I've come to know. They are the most joyous people I know. If you don't have time or don't want to read and understand EVANGELII GAUDIUM, at least read and understand the title of it: THE JOY OF THE GOSPEL. If you're missing the joy, you're not going to attract anyone else to the Good News. If you're missing the joy, you need to ask yourself why? Look how much joy and hope there is when Pope Francis speaks and meets people. That ought to let you realise that he is a good man, a good pope. Light is not darkness.

Of course Pope Francis is not perfect, far from it, and he's the first to admit it, but what a wonderful example and inspiration he is to the rest of us who aren't perfect either.

You could find fault with Jesus if you wanted to too, but in doing so, you would be completely missing the point.



This book does a great job of explaining how many of the faithful have fallen into a trap around the role and power of the pope.

https://www.amazon.com/Christus-Vincit-Christs-Triumph-Darkness/dp/1621384896/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1U7U1G4OSKZSD&keywords=christus+vincit+christ+s+triumph+over+the+darkness+of+the+age&qid=1573784439&sprefix=Christ+us+vincit%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-1

He’s the Pope and as such worthy of our respect and the assumption of his good intention as our first reaction to whatever he says or does. However, the way you have described how one should treat the Pope makes one wonder how you would have felt if this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII guy was our Pope today (or a host of others like him).

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:08 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What a sad and crazy Alice In Wonderland website this is, and how far down the rabbit hole most of you guys here have fallen if you think you're defending the Catholic faith by rubbishing the pope. You're in so deep, you don't even see it. Pope Francis is my pope. Who is your pope? You're your own pope.

Almost all the Catholics I know love Pope Francis, including a couple of priests I've come to know. They are the most joyous people I know. If you don't have time or don't want to read and understand EVANGELII GAUDIUM, at least read and understand the title of it: THE JOY OF THE GOSPEL. If you're missing the joy, you're not going to attract anyone else to the Good News. If you're missing the joy, you need to ask yourself why? Look how much joy and hope there is when Pope Francis speaks and meets people. That ought to let you realise that he is a good man, a good pope. Light is not darkness.

Of course Pope Francis is not perfect, far from it, and he's the first to admit it, but what a wonderful example and inspiration he is to the rest of us who aren't perfect either.

You could find fault with Jesus if you wanted to too, but in doing so, you would be completely missing the point.



This book does a great job of explaining how many of the faithful have fallen into a trap around the role and power of the pope.

https://www.amazon.com/Christus-Vincit-Christs-Triumph-Darkness/dp/1621384896/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1U7U1G4OSKZSD&keywords=christus+vincit+christ+s+triumph+over+the+darkness+of+the+age&qid=1573784439&sprefix=Christ+us+vincit%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-1

He’s the Pope and as such worthy of our respect and the assumption of his good intention as our first reaction to whatever he says or does. However, the way you have described how one should treat the Pope makes one wonder how you would have felt if this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII guy was our Pope today (or a host of others like him).

That's what I call a bad pope.

And what a contrast with Pope Francis.

Count our blessings.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:25 pm 
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Francis is a bad Pope because he does not fulfill the duties of his office, and he is an authoritarian dictator who runs roughshod over the rights of the Curia and the local ordinary. The irony of this is that for more than 30 years, so-called "liberal" or "progressive" Catholics complained that John Paul II and Benedict XVI were "authoritarian thugs", which was never true. But it was never true. But now, there actually is an authoritarian Pope, but they don't have a problem with it, because they think he is on their side.

I think may be a heretic in his personal life, however, he has not imposed his heresy on the Church. What he has done, is intentionally spread confusion by speaking ambiguously so that those who wish to believe he is teaching heresy will be able to infer heresy from his words will be able to do so even though an orthodox interpretation is also possible. This is not the first time this has happened as examples of Popes Liberius, Honorius and a handful of other examples attest.

My own view is that for at least the last 150-200 years, we have been blessed with many great and holy popes and it has made us lazy, and we have gotten used to relying on the Pope for everything. There has been a kind of Papal Cult of Personality, and it is unhealthy.

Now we have the worst Pope in at least 500 years and we are learning that we can't keep looking to Rome for everything we have to rely again on our local bishops and on parish priests and on ourselves. And if this leads to less Popalotory in the future, that is probably a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Francis is a bad Pope because he does not fulfill the duties of his office, and he is an authoritarian dictator who runs roughshod over the rights of the Curia and the local ordinary. The irony of this is that for more than 30 years, so-called "liberal" or "progressive" Catholics complained that John Paul II and Benedict XVI were "authoritarian thugs", which was never true. But it was never true. But now, there actually is an authoritarian Pope, but they don't have a problem with it, because they think he is on their side.

I think may be a heretic in his personal life, however, he has not imposed his heresy on the Church. What he has done, is intentionally spread confusion by speaking ambiguously so that those who wish to believe he is teaching heresy will be able to infer heresy from his words will be able to do so even though an orthodox interpretation is also possible. This is not the first time this has happened as examples of Popes Liberius, Honorius and a handful of other examples attest.

My own view is that for at least the last 150-200 years, we have been blessed with many great and holy popes and it has made us lazy, and we have gotten used to relying on the Pope for everything. There has been a kind of Papal Cult of Personality, and it is unhealthy.

Now we have the worst Pope in at least 500 years and we are learning that we can't keep looking to Rome for everything we have to rely again on our local bishops and on parish priests and on ourselves. And if this leads to less Popalotory in the future, that is probably a good thing.



A lot of accusations. Based on what I know, and I know Pope Emeritus Benedict has been assisting him, I think Pope Francis is doing a fine job. That is, executing his duties in a way that helps the Church.

Those who pick and choose from what Pope Francis says to further their desire to have him viewed as some kind of progressive or agreeable Pope are having a hard time. A close look at their carefully chosen Pope Francis extracts shows they do not want anyone to hear anything but their own invented version of what the Pope is or is not doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:47 pm 
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Allowing pagan idols in a church in Rome, and even criticizing the people who removed them is "being a great Pope"?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:59 pm 
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There were things St. JP II did that didn't thrill me, and B XVI did things that didn't thrill me either. One doesn't have to think that everything a pope does is wonderful.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:53 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
We have to remember that they are human.

And that is exactly why we can admit when a bad Pope is a bad Pope and not feel the need to defend him just because he's the Pope.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:13 am 
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Doom wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
We have to remember that they are human.

And that is exactly why we can admit when a bad Pope is a bad Pope and not feel the need to defend him just because he's the Pope.

Who do you think was the last good Pope?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:50 am 
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Doom wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
We have to remember that they are human.

And that is exactly why we can admit when a bad Pope is a bad Pope and not feel the need to defend him just because he's the Pope.


I agree. With the refinement that we do not feel the need to defend him in every aspect and in each of his statements and decisions just because he's the Pope. For example, I will not defend the whole process of the Amazonian Synod ... it was a train off the rails from its inception.

Other that what I perceive as his lack of clarity and introduction of ambiguity, I'll defend him.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Doom wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
We have to remember that they are human.

And that is exactly why we can admit when a bad Pope is a bad Pope and not feel the need to defend him just because he's the Pope.


I agree. With the refinement that we do not feel the need to defend him in every aspect and in each of his statements and decisions just because he's the Pope. For example, I will not defend the whole process of the Amazonian Synod ... it was a train off the rails from its inception.

Other that what I perceive as his lack of clarity and introduction of ambiguity, I'll defend him.



The Amazon Synod was pushed off the rails by those who wanted to make changes.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/ca ... ult-to-god


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:17 pm 
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Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?



Tell me, how many times did Jesus, the founder of the Catholic Church, force people to hear Him?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:26 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are there things that Pope Francis could have done about that? If so, is it good that he didn't do them?


I'm only slightly, and from afar, knowledgeable of the workings of the Vatican and the upper echelons of the Church. However, there are many, many large, complex, long-term planning and investigative groups, from all sorts of organizations, that meet to deal with various issues.

It in common for the authority calling the group together to (1) provide a specific charter, outlining and explaining what the groups portfolio is and what it is not; (2) provide a roadmap of the scope and depth of the group's efforts; (3) establish the resources --- staff, money, venue, time -- that will be allocated to the group; (4) set milestones for the progress of the group; and (5) appoint specific people to specific roles with a definition of those roles. Obviously, the depth and formality of these "instructions" vary with the nature and extent of the group's purpose -- from the very informal to full-up documentation and briefings to the group. I have worked as the Secretary for such a group.

The Pope might have included, if such a charter was provided, a statement that married priests and amazon deacons were not within the scope of the Synod.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:53 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Ammon:

When Jesus whipped the money changers out of the temple.



Should Pope Francis start whipping people :)


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