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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:00 pm 
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theJack wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xMaR8au-YU



I've seen something like this before and have read about it. As someone who fully understands research and fact-finding, I understand that I cannot inject any bias. Years of practice and double-checks has made me present the facts fairly and accurately.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:08 pm 
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GKC wrote:
theJack wrote:
"Want" can mean "desire" in the sense of "wishing" or "hoping," or it can just refer to a sense of expectation based on preexisting beliefs (regardless of what you "hope" to be the case). Confirmation bias is 100% related to the latter and only accidentally related to the former insofar as it is related to the latter.



I don't think he is expecting anything. I think he is concerned. Like looking at a skin spot. Might be cancer, might not. Concern is not expectation. But it can often be judicious.

As stated, I'm not RC. But I am curious. Not expecting. Curious.

But concern is only concern if it is tied to an expectation. I'm not concerned about an asteroid hitting the planet tomorrow. I have less than zero expectation it will happen. Indeed (supposing I survived the event) I'd be in utter shock if it happened. My point is merely that there's so much consternation around Francis--some legitimate, I'm sure, and some not, I'm sure--that it can't help but create a sense of expectation and dread. That is, it creates a narrative, and that narrative feeds rather naturally into conspiratorial theories. So you find yourself wondering if maybe, just maybe, being "asked" to meet people during Mass isn't the proverbial camel's nose under the tent. The very wondering itself necessitates and underlying connection made in the mind, and that underlying connection is necessarily of the narrative type. It's conspiratorial by nature, and it reeks of confirmation bias. It debases this entire conversation. If Francis is a bad pope, it has absolutely nothing to do with the sort of concerns that have been bandied. And if he's a good or even neutral pope, then these sorts of concerns say much more about the people raising them than they do about Francis himself. I just hope people are as open to self-examination on this sort of thing as they are open to Francis-examination.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:35 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
In our most recent parish bulletin, it was announced that a new procedure will be introduced during the Mass. Before the opening hymn, the faithful in the pews will be "invited" to greet those next to them, introduce themselves, and get to know them a bit. It is reported that this originated with the unanimous Parish Council, "to make our Parish more welcoming and friendly...". We are assured that it won't take but a minute and that, although it might take some people out of their comfort zone, it is being introduced "...because it will be good for some of you to smile and greet other people. ..."


first, just because the parish council was unanimous in wanting this implemented, why didn't the priest just say no... it is the job of the PC to advise the priest, not dictate to him

2nd, this nonsense was in effect at the parish in which i came into full communion with the Church from the get go.... not sure when it started but afaik, we've always been a touchy feely squishy spirt of V II parish .... now that the new priest has come in, bringing incense , bells and the introduction of the Latin Mass to the liturgy, that nonsense has been stopped ....

ours was even worse though in that it was the priest who invited the faithful to greet those around us , right before he announced in the Name of the Father.....

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:41 pm 
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One helpful hint about the "pretend it's a social hour" parishes is to simply stay kneeling with your eyes shut until the mass actually begins. (Kind of like keeping your eyes shut and hands clasped in front of you if you're at a parish where people want to assault you before the Pater.)

Of course, that's more difficult in a case like FS just mentioned!

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:45 pm 
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theJack wrote:
GKC wrote:
theJack wrote:
"Want" can mean "desire" in the sense of "wishing" or "hoping," or it can just refer to a sense of expectation based on preexisting beliefs (regardless of what you "hope" to be the case). Confirmation bias is 100% related to the latter and only accidentally related to the former insofar as it is related to the latter.



I don't think he is expecting anything. I think he is concerned. Like looking at a skin spot. Might be cancer, might not. Concern is not expectation. But it can often be judicious.

As stated, I'm not RC. But I am curious. Not expecting. Curious.

But concern is only concern if it is tied to an expectation. I'm not concerned about an asteroid hitting the planet tomorrow. I have less than zero expectation it will happen. Indeed (supposing I survived the event) I'd be in utter shock if it happened. My point is merely that there's so much consternation around Francis--some legitimate, I'm sure, and some not, I'm sure--that it can't help but create a sense of expectation and dread. That is, it creates a narrative, and that narrative feeds rather naturally into conspiratorial theories. So you find yourself wondering if maybe, just maybe, being "asked" to meet people during Mass isn't the proverbial camel's nose under the tent. The very wondering itself necessitates and underlying connection made in the mind, and that underlying connection is necessarily of the narrative type. It's conspiratorial by nature, and it reeks of confirmation bias. It debases this entire conversation. If Francis is a bad pope, it has absolutely nothing to do with the sort of concerns that have been bandied. And if he's a good or even neutral pope, then these sorts of concerns say much more about the people raising them than they do about Francis himself. I just hope people are as open to self-examination on this sort of thing as they are open to Francis-examination.


Confirmation bias is a two edged sword. As is self-examination.

I'm not going to analyze him, or you, in that respect. But concern is concern, is neither expectation or conviction. That whine I hear from the car's front end might or might not be a wheel bearing failing. I'm curious. Prudently curious, seeking to find more information.

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"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:31 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Thank you for your opinion, DeeDee. Now could you please provide links to source material proving that these statements are, indeed, the rationale of Pope Francis?

http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomo ... udium.html

An offhand link to a voluminous document is not a response. Please provide specific links to each of your claims separately.

I don't have time to summarise EVANGELII GAUDIUM for the benefit of people who haven't read it and don't want to read it. It's all relevant and well worth reading and understanding. If you haven't got time to read it, or don't want to, that's entirely up to you.

You didn't ask PED to "Please provide specific links to each of your claims separately" when he wrote this:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Francis is a horrid pope. Blessing idols was just the last iteration.

He is explicit on much of his agenda, including changing the very nature of the Church when he raved against the pope as absolute monarch. He is at best callously irresponsible with the media (there is no excuse for the Scalfari interviews... All the excuses would just be reasons why not to do them repeatedly)

He tears and mocks young priests, and orthodox Catholics from the pulpit. He is given to bouts of rage and foul language (even a few times in public)

He has promoted and encouraged those whom he ought to correct, against the obligation his predecessors understood, as in Holy Writ

If thou dost not declare his iniquity to the wicked, I will require his blood at thy hand


He has actively endorsed communion in cases objectively wrong.

He has not infrequently shown carelessness and ignorance of the very laws he attempts to change (e.g being unaware that the reserved sins, as opposed to censures, were abolished in 1983).

We have also seen a precipitous decline in both order and quality in the curia, reflected in both large and small matters (e.g legally ambigious legislation or ungrammatical prayers for new feasts)

I don’t have to call out PED for three reasons, DeeDee. One, he doesn’t purport to have been inside Francis’ head, as you blatantly did a page or two ago. Two, he didn’t mention anything that hasn’t already been thoroughly discussed in other threads on this Board. And three, his reliability and scholarship in Catholic teaching are as rock-solid as Fr. Kenobi’s, and has been for longer than I’ve been a member. He earned my trust and respect long ago. You, on the other hand, seem to live solely to troll, trash, and dash away once you’ve either had your feet held to the fire or you’ve gotten bored.

There is one thing you and PED do have in common, though: you’re both unwaveringly consistent.

What an extraordinarily deep rabbit hole you have gotten yourself into if you think posting positive comments about the Pope is trolling and trashing.

(And as for dashing, why do you have difficulty understanding that I, like hopefully most people here, have a life, and posting in these forums is not the only thing and far from the most important thing in my life?)

What a sad and crazy Alice In Wonderland website this is, and how far down the rabbit hole most of you guys here have fallen if you think you're defending the Catholic faith by rubbishing the pope. You're in so deep, you don't even see it. Pope Francis is my pope. Who is your pope? You're your own pope.

Almost all the Catholics I know love Pope Francis, including a couple of priests I've come to know. They are the most joyous people I know. If you don't have time or don't want to read and understand EVANGELII GAUDIUM, at least read and understand the title of it: THE JOY OF THE GOSPEL. If you're missing the joy, you're not going to attract anyone else to the Good News. If you're missing the joy, you need to ask yourself why? Look how much joy and hope there is when Pope Francis speaks and meets people. That ought to let you realise that he is a good man, a good pope. Light is not darkness.

Of course Pope Francis is not perfect, far from it, and he's the first to admit it, but what a wonderful example and inspiration he is to the rest of us who aren't perfect either.

You could find fault with Jesus if you wanted to too, but in doing so, you would be completely missing the point.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:24 pm 
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I'll take our Wonderland over your koolaid any day.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:37 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
I'll take our Wonderland over your koolaid any day.

Well said, Fearless Leader! :siggy

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Flavor Aid :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Powerade

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
I'll take our Wonderland over your koolaid any day.




Seconded.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Powerade


But not Gatorade. :verymad:


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:05 pm 
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Did I spell koolaid wrong? :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:05 pm 
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There's debate over which product was used at Jonestown.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
There's debate over which product was used at Jonestown.


:thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Oops, so this isn’t the Word Association thread? :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Powerade


But not Gatorade. :verymad:

Don’t get me started on those Florida philistines. At least we beat them in Jax...again. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
thread

needle!

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:23 pm 
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The Word Association Thread is thataway-------->

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