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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
.... I don't trust people who are not concerned with truth.
...
...I never once commented or made any suggestion about whether or not married clergy "were continent"....something I am "very, VERY ignorant and confused about", with absolutely nothing to support your claim.

As to the first semi-quote above, let us address that later.

As to the second, I agree you made no comment about continents or peninsulas or archipelagos. However, based upon your repeated assertion that none should worry about married priests, and in spite of multiple responses refining and focusing and clarifying arguments against your claim to a historical married priesthood, you have simply repeated your initial premise, rejecting any contrary, if factual, positions. I, therefore, give credence to that part of the statements that you might be ignorant or confused...if not very. An alternative explanation might be that you are neither ignorant nor confused, but persistent in advancing a position contrary to the position of the Church in the guise of secular charity.

Which brings up back to the first semi-quote. I, in this case, completely agree with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:23 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
What most people --- like Denise Dee --- are very, VERY ignorant and confused about is the simple fact that, historically, while married clergy did exist, they were continent.

When you so freely say something which is obviously untrue, tango, then I cannot have much confidence that anything else you say is true. I don't trust people who are not concerned with truth. You said:

"What most people --- like Denise Dee --- are very, VERY ignorant and confused about is the simple fact that, historically, while married clergy did exist, they were continent."

But I never once commented or made any suggestion about whether or not married clergy "were continent". Yet that hasn't stopped you proclaiming that that's something I am "very, VERY ignorant and confused about", with absolutely nothing to support your claim.


That's because you never even heard of continence or its relevance to this topic until I told you about it.

Again, you need to do more reading and less posting around here.

I don't have to support any claim about your ignorance on this topic because your own posts are evidence enough of that!

... you remind me very much of a female poster who was here many, many years ago... IIRC, she claimed to be "looking for answers," too, and when she was given answers, all she did was argue. She would pretty much refuse to acknowledge the answers being provided to her, and continue to reiterate her point. She also seemed, again IIRC, fairly adept at shifting the scope of the discussion. I don't remember her username now, but you very much remind me of her.

highlander's post above is really charitable, but I don't suffer wolves in sheeps clothing.

Personally, I just think you're here to stir up the pot... Either you're a liberal catholic with an agenda, or your're a non-catholic with an agenda. Either way, I think you have no genuine interest in trying to learn anything about Catholicism. But that's just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Why do you choose to believe that I'm ignorant and uneducated when you have no reason to believe your stupid assertions, tango? Is it because I'm a woman and you think women are incapable? If it's not that, then what is it that's causing you to make these completely unfounded assumptions about me?

If there is anything I don't understand, I will freely admit it, and I have often done so on these forums, but I can assure you that I have known for years what "continence" means in this context (and I am well aware of its other meanings in a medical context, at least in this part of the world). So when you make stupid statements like that, I can't take anything you say seriously.

Even if I may not necessarily always agree with what some people say (such as Obi, Highlander, theJack, PED, jack3, etc), I take in what they say and I think about what they say, i.e. I take them seriously. But tango you are such an extremist who just says stupid things with no evidence, I can't take you seriously at all. Fortunately I realise that you are not representative of Catholicism, otherwise I could very easily be put off Catholism entirely, if I thought Catholicism was what you've turned it into.

You're trying to label me as a "liberal, you're trying to limit me, push me into a little neat box entitled "bad liberals". Again I can assure you, tango, I'm much more complex than you are willing to consider, most human beings are. I'm not a "liberal", I'm not a label, I'm a human being. The term "liberal" has lost all it's meaning, it's now just a word some Americans use to mean "anyone who disagrees with me and is therefore ipso facto a bad person".

I know you think Pope Francis is a "liberal" too, and you don't appear to have much respect for him, whereas I have total respect for him, and yet you accuse me of being here just to stir up the pot! And this is a CATHOLIC website! Crazy! You could learn something from Pope Francis, he inspires people, he inspires me. Sometimes people on this website say things which inspire me. You, tango, NEVER inspire. You never have anything good to say about anyone or anything.

You've turned this topic into a personal attack against me, which is what some people do when they are unable to make reasonable and legitimate arguments about the actual topic under discussion, so they resort to attacking the person instead, which is something which Obi, for example, never does. Try following Obi's example, and stop saying stupid things without anything to support what you say, and then I might start to take you seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:59 pm 
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"In synod’s married priests debate, somebody finally names elephant in the room"

Quote:
“All these priests and religious that we see on TV… It cannot be that they’re all studying in Rome,” he said. “The distribution of priests and religious is not good.”

To quote that 90’s classic: “Whoomp! There it is.”


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:49 am 
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I can't argue with the idea that it would make sense for some priests from place A to go to place B or C or D. (My parish currently has a pastor from Cameroon, as it happens. So there is certainly some of that going on.) But priest =/= missionary. (Not in our ordinary colloquial use of the term missionary, anyway.) A secular priest is ordained by a bishop to serve in that bishop's diocese, not to serve somewhere else.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:53 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Why do you choose to believe that I'm ignorant and uneducated when you have no reason to believe your stupid assertions, tango? Is it because I'm a woman and you think women are incapable? If it's not that, then what is it that's causing you to make these completely unfounded assumptions about me?

If there is anything I don't understand, I will freely admit it, and I have often done so on these forums, but I can assure you that I have known for years what "continence" means in this context (and I am well aware of its other meanings in a medical context, at least in this part of the world). So when you make stupid statements like that, I can't take anything you say seriously.

Even if I may not necessarily always agree with what some people say (such as Obi, Highlander, theJack, PED, jack3, etc), I take in what they say and I think about what they say, i.e. I take them seriously. But tango you are such an extremist who just says stupid things with no evidence, I can't take you seriously at all. Fortunately I realise that you are not representative of Catholicism, otherwise I could very easily be put off Catholism entirely, if I thought Catholicism was what you've turned it into.

You're trying to label me as a "liberal, you're trying to limit me, push me into a little neat box entitled "bad liberals". Again I can assure you, tango, I'm much more complex than you are willing to consider, most human beings are. I'm not a "liberal", I'm not a label, I'm a human being. The term "liberal" has lost all it's meaning, it's now just a word some Americans use to mean "anyone who disagrees with me and is therefore ipso facto a bad person".

I know you think Pope Francis is a "liberal" too, and you don't appear to have much respect for him, whereas I have total respect for him, and yet you accuse me of being here just to stir up the pot! And this is a CATHOLIC website! Crazy! You could learn something from Pope Francis, he inspires people, he inspires me. Sometimes people on this website say things which inspire me. You, tango, NEVER inspire. You never have anything good to say about anyone or anything.

You've turned this topic into a personal attack against me, which is what some people do when they are unable to make reasonable and legitimate arguments about the actual topic under discussion, so they resort to attacking the person instead, which is something which Obi, for example, never does. Try following Obi's example, and stop saying stupid things without anything to support what you say, and then I might start to take you seriously.


like i said... you remind me of a previous poster who was also good at shifting the scope of the discussion.

torn. that's the name. that's who you remind me of, and i wonder if you've just reincarnated here.

so, let's ignore your charge of misogyny against me in your first paragraph and get back on track.

You said:
Quote:
What do you mean it "doesn't bode well"? I fail to see why this possible change could be a problem.


That's because you're not Catholic and don't know much about this topic except that 'some priests used to be married, and some priests are currently married.'

Quote:
Originally priests were allowed to marry, so there is no fundamental reason why priests shouldn't again be allowed to marry. And there are currently some married priests.


The reason you 'fail to see why this possible change could be a problem' is because you never heard of marital continence until this thread came into your life. This is why you wrote:
...I didn't know "they put their wives away". How do you know "they put their wives away"? What exactly does "they put their wives away" mean? It sounds wrong. Did their wives have any say in whether they were "put away" or not?

Quote:
And why on earth shouldn't there be women deacons? We are not some separate species, we are as human as men, there is no fundamental reason why women cannot be deacons.


Clearly you think this is all a social justice issue about misogynistic old men running the Church, who don't want the women taking over. Laughable.

Quote:
Some people have a psychological problem with change, which shouldn't prevent change when it's beneficial and necessary, which it often is.


Your opinion is clearly malformed, you wrongly think the Church is misogynistic, and then you insult pretty much everybody on this board who disagrees with tossing the rule on clerical celibacy by labeling them (us) as having "a psychological problem."

You may not like my approach towards you in this thread, and frankly, I don't really care because you started off with the insults first. You should feel fortunate that anybody has bothered to take the time to provide you information that would help you at least understand where we're coming from. But you don't listen to anybody else, and you don't bother to research and read. You just fling uninformed opinion around here about how you, a non-Catholic, think things should work in the Catholic Church. You're not "looking for answers" as it reads under your avatar, rather you're "looking to give answers," it seems.

Why should anybody give your thoughts on this subject the time of day? What actual, keen, well-informed insight do you have that should make us stand up and take notice to consider your position and/or reconsider our own?

Up to this point, the only thing I've seen you come up with is, "because priests used to be married and some are currently married."

Such is not a very convincing argument. So, what else you got?


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:42 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
You said:

Quote:
What do you mean it "doesn't bode well"? I fail to see why this possible change could be a problem.


That's because you're not Catholic and don't know much about this topic except that 'some priests used to be married, and some priests are currently married.'

Tango, I am Catholic. Nobody should believe a word you say because you keep saying things that aren’t true. I may not be a super-Catholic, holier than the Pope, like some Catholics think they are, but I am nevertheless a Catholic, an ordinary imperfect Catholic trying to live my life according to the teachings of Jesus, like millions of other Catholics.

I haven’t got time to get into all the other latest things you have said which equally aren’t true.

 

tAnGo wrote:
So, what else you got?

I’ve got no more time for your nonsense.

Nobody here has been able to explain calmly and rationally what would be wrong with more married priests in places where there is a shortage of priests. What can’t a married priest do that a celibate unmarried priest can do? For ordinary Catholics, what practical difference does it make? I recall reading posts from a couple of people here who have spoken about married priests in their own parish, and I don’t recall either of them having any complaints.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:11 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
...Nobody here has been able to explain calmly and rationally what would be wrong with more married priests in places where there is a shortage of priests. What can’t a married priest do that a celibate unmarried priest can do? For ordinary Catholics, what practical difference does it make? I recall reading posts from a couple of people here who have spoken about married priests in their own parish, and I don’t recall either of them having any complaints.

As a parting comment, this is where you are indeed quite incorrect. Many, but not all, have explained, calmly and rationally, but you simply refuse to accept the explanations. It is as if the explanations were never offered. I now believe that you arrived with mind made up will not accept a position contrary to your druthers, facts notwithstanding. For this ordinary Catholic, priests being unmarried makes a great deal of difference ... for an extraordinary Catholic, it might not.

I was one who had a married priest in our parish, a good man with a good family. I had no complaints, but it didn't work out. He was not less a priest, but the burden of the parish and the burden of his marriage were too great, in combination, to manage. It was unfair and unworkable to ask him to sacrifice family to parish.

I am not interested in engaging is further exchanges relative to how the burden of parish could be alleviated ... by amazon deacons, perhaps. Because I conclude that such exchanges would be fruitless.

:wave

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There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Tango, I am Catholic.


It is my understanding, from your previous posts, that you were baptized in the Catholic Church. Were you also confirmed?


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:45 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Zeno wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...I didn't know "they put their wives away". How do you know "they put their wives away"? What exactly does "they put their wives away" mean? It sounds wrong. Did their wives have any say in whether they were "put away" or not?



You really don't know? As I recall, they removed themselves from their wives and lived a single, celibate life. But I could be wrong.

If that were true, then why would it matter if they had one or two or three or more wives?

1 Timothy 3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife,

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.


Because a man who had more than one wife would be an adulterer...

No he wouldn't be an adulterer, not if he "put his wives away" and "lived a single celibate life". He would be an adulterer if he didn't remain celibate with more than one wife. So it's okay to have one wife, and not be celibate, that's the point.
… blameless…

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:48 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Tango, I am Catholic.


It is my understanding, from your previous posts, that you were baptized in the Catholic Church. Were you also confirmed?

I was, when I was about nine or ten.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...Nobody here has been able to explain calmly and rationally what would be wrong with more married priests in places where there is a shortage of priests. What can’t a married priest do that a celibate unmarried priest can do? For ordinary Catholics, what practical difference does it make? I recall reading posts from a couple of people here who have spoken about married priests in their own parish, and I don’t recall either of them having any complaints.

As a parting comment, this is where you are indeed quite incorrect. Many, but not all, have explained, calmly and rationally, but you simply refuse to accept the explanations. It is as if the explanations were never offered. I now believe that you arrived with mind made up will not accept a position contrary to your druthers, facts notwithstanding. For this ordinary Catholic, priests being unmarried makes a great deal of difference ... for an extraordinary Catholic, it might not.

I was one who had a married priest in our parish, a good man with a good family. I had no complaints, but it didn't work out. He was not less a priest, but the burden of the parish and the burden of his marriage were too great, in combination, to manage. It was unfair and unworkable to ask him to sacrifice family to parish.

I am not interested in engaging is further exchanges relative to how the burden of parish could be alleviated ... by amazon deacons, perhaps. Because I conclude that such exchanges would be fruitless.

:wave

Things don't always work out for unmarried priests either, but that's not a reason to not have unmarried priests. I still haven't seen one good reason why there shouldn't be some more married priests where needed, when the alternative is to have no priests, no weekly mass, no Eucharist, no confession, no baptism, no anointing of the sick, etc

You're making it sound like I'm just being stupid and stubborn, Highlander, but 128 of the 180 bishops at the synod on the Amazon voted in favour of married priests. So what you are doing, Highlander, is a bit like gaslighting.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Catechism of the Catholic Church

1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."70 Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord,"71 they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.72

1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:19 am 
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I lied. I'm back.

With concluding evidence.

https://www.disrn.com/2019/11/07/lesbian-priest-appointed-as-ceo-of-major-abortion-group-calls-abortion-doctors-modern-day-saints/

Which reveals the slippery slope quickly turning into the slippery precipice.

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Benedicamus Domino!
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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:23 pm 
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This is not the Lesbian Episcopal priest forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...Nobody here has been able to explain calmly and rationally what would be wrong with more married priests in places where there is a shortage of priests. What can’t a married priest do that a celibate unmarried priest can do? For ordinary Catholics, what practical difference does it make? I recall reading posts from a couple of people here who have spoken about married priests in their own parish, and I don’t recall either of them having any complaints.

As a parting comment, this is where you are indeed quite incorrect. Many, but not all, have explained, calmly and rationally, but you simply refuse to accept the explanations. It is as if the explanations were never offered. I now believe that you arrived with mind made up will not accept a position contrary to your druthers, facts notwithstanding. For this ordinary Catholic, priests being unmarried makes a great deal of difference ... for an extraordinary Catholic, it might not.

I was one who had a married priest in our parish, a good man with a good family. I had no complaints, but it didn't work out. He was not less a priest, but the burden of the parish and the burden of his marriage were too great, in combination, to manage. It was unfair and unworkable to ask him to sacrifice family to parish.

I am not interested in engaging is further exchanges relative to how the burden of parish could be alleviated ... by amazon deacons, perhaps. Because I conclude that such exchanges would be fruitless.

:wave

Things don't always work out for unmarried priests either, but that's not a reason to not have unmarried priests. I still haven't seen one good reason why there shouldn't be some more married priests where needed, when the alternative is to have no priests, no weekly mass, no Eucharist, no confession, no baptism, no anointing of the sick, etc

You're making it sound like I'm just being stupid and stubborn, Highlander, but 128 of the 180 bishops at the synod on the Amazon voted in favour of married priests. So what you are doing, Highlander, is a bit like gaslighting.




The Catholic Church is not a Democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
This is not the Lesbian Episcopal priest forum.



Any place is a good place to reveal LEPs.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:42 pm 
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"reveal LEPs"? Old news.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
"reveal LEPs"? Old news.


I have a feeling that he knows that. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:26 pm 
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He probably knows about LBGTEPs as well.

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