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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:10 pm 
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Pope Francis tried to resolve historical questions about women as deacons in the Church but that study was inconclusive. He was willing to give it another try.

https://www.catholicnews.com/services/e ... lusive.cfm


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:14 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
So, as both the priesthood and diaconate are Holy Orders, the Pope has affirmed that women cannot be Deacons. Correct?

But, if so, why did the Pope establish the Pontifical Commission for the Study of the Diaconate of Women? And how is it that the final report of the Amazon Synod specifically recommended encouraging more men to study to become priests; sending ordained missionaries into the Amazon; and ordaining viri probati, “men of proven virtue,” including husbands and fathers already active within Amazonian parishes -- married priests?



That final report from the Amazon synod and its recommendations are not magisterial. Pope Francis will issue his own document later. Cardinal Sarah has called any attempt to use the synod that is outside its original mandate as "an insult to God."


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Pope Francis tried to resolve historical questions about women as deacons in the Church but that study was inconclusive. He was willing to give it another try.

https://www.catholicnews.com/services/e ... lusive.cfm


There were similar commissions under John Paul II, so the historical question does not need to be resolved.

As I've argued elsewhere, I think this is a kind of Vatican way of dismissing a concern in the most polite manner possible.

Let me make an analogy, imagine you ask your mother if you can attend a party at your friend's house where there will be many girls present and no adult supervision and sh and an unlocked liquor cabinet, she responds "I'll think about it", you ask again a week later, and she gives the same answer, a week later, same answer.

Finally, it is the night before the party and you complain "you won't give me a straight answer, can I go or not?". She responds "how dumb are you, how many times do I have to avoid answering your stupid question before you realize my answer is not just no but hell no? You will attend that party over my dead body, got it?"

When the Pope says "I'll set up a commission to study that" I think it actually means the same thing mom means when she says "I'll think about it", in other words not just "no" but "hell no".

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:02 pm 
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I understand what you mean but I think it's something else. The same people who heard Pope John Paul II's closing the door on ordaining women are still pushing the "well, we have evidence women were ordained in the early Church" or something. Perhaps the Pope is going back to put the final nail in the lid of that claim. Perhaps he wants those women to know that their claims are not true. I see no sign of the women priests issue stopping. And no lack of enthusiasm for some kind of deacon role. Along with the push for more upper management decision-making. The Church is not a man-made entity.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:47 am 
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Doom wrote:
There were similar commissions under John Paul II, so the historical question does not need to be resolved.

As I've argued elsewhere, I think this is a kind of Vatican way of dismissing a concern in the most polite manner possible. ...

It could be. Or it could be a way of sending the issue back to the committee until the committee comes up with the right answer. I present, as evidence, the Amazon Synod. Which explicitly recommended married priests. In spite of the "it is impossible" statements over the years.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:50 am 
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Married priests are not impossible and I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Doom wrote:
There were similar commissions under John Paul II, so the historical question does not need to be resolved.

As I've argued elsewhere, I think this is a kind of Vatican way of dismissing a concern in the most polite manner possible. ...

It could be. Or it could be a way of sending the issue back to the committee until the committee comes up with the right answer. I present, as evidence, the Amazon Synod. Which explicitly recommended married priests. In spite of the "it is impossible" statements over the years.



The Amazon Synod did and decided wrong things. Their final document is not magisterial. Pope Francis will be issuing his own document at a later time.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:28 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
... Their final document is not magisterial. Pope Francis will be issuing his own document at a later time.

I understand that it was not magisterial. Nevertheless, in having the controversial and radical report produced and released, there is now a cat roaming around out of the bag.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:59 pm 
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There are married priests in the Latin Church right now. Under what has been called 'the pastoral provision', some married Protestant clergy who convert can be ordained as priests. There is little chance that the suggestion of the synod will be implemented, but even if it were, it would not be the creation of a new rule, it would only be a modest expansion of a rule that already exists.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:22 pm 
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Doom wrote:
... a modest expansion of a rule that already exists.

A modest dromedary's nose ... how relieved I am.

I'm aware of the Pastoral Provision. It is one area I may be more knowledgeable about than most on this board. The number of priests using the Pastoral Provision is minuscule ... about 120. A vast oversimplification would be that, in the Latin Church, there will probably be no Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (an arrangement separate and distinct from the Pastoral Provision) and no entries into the priesthood though the Pastoral Provision in 50 years.

And:

In order to give due regard to the value of clerical celibacy, it is ordinarily the practice of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that the number of married priests in any particular diocese under the Pastoral Provision be limited to two.

The Pastoral Provision is not a proving ground for optional celibacy in the Catholic Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Married priests are not impossible and I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise.


True. A better phrased thought would have been: "It is not possible that the Synod could recommend married priests." In light of events, it was. Possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Even if married priests were to become the norm in the west, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Although the Church has always preferred celibate priests, the current rule only dates from the reign of Pope Gregory VII(1073-1085), and even after imposing that rule, it was widely flouted with both married priests being common until just before the eve of the Reformation. Because marriage was technically not allowed many priests simply cohabited with their lovers outside of wedlock. Their congregations were aware of this state of affairs and there is little evidence that they were offended by it.

For the first 1000+ years of Church history, married priests were at least as common and often more common than celibate priests. Celibacy has always been an extremely difficult rule to enforce, this is not a new problem.


If we adopt the practice of the Eastern Churches, where celibacy is preferred but married men are often ordained and bishops are always chosen from among the celibate clergy, it would not, I think, be a huge disaster. And it if helps to alleviate the priest shortage, it might prove to be beneficial. In my diocese, 40 parishes were recently closed due to a lack of priests. We already have married deacons if sone of them could be raised to the priesthood, maybe we wouldn't have had to close all those parishes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:24 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Even if married priests were to become the norm in the west, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Although the Church has always preferred celibate priests, the current rule only dates from the reign of Pope Gregory VII(1073-1085), and even after imposing that rule, it was widely flouted with both married priests being common until just before the eve of the Reformation. Because marriage was technically not allowed many priests simply cohabited with their lovers outside of wedlock. Their congregations were aware of this state of affairs and there is little evidence that they were offended by it.

For the first 1000+ years of Church history, married priests were at least as common and often more common than celibate priests. Celibacy has always been an extremely difficult rule to enforce, this is not a new problem.


If we adopt the practice of the Eastern Churches, where celibacy is preferred but married men are often ordained and bishops are always chosen from among the celibate clergy, it would not, I think, be a huge disaster. And it if helps to alleviate the priest shortage, it might prove to be beneficial. In my diocese, 40 parishes were recently closed due to a lack of priests. We already have married deacons if sone of them could be raised to the priesthood, maybe we wouldn't have had to close all those parishes.




The "priest shortage" is a False argument. This is about ending or making celibacy optional. In 1967, when there was no priest shortage, Pope Paul VI wrote:



"To the Bishops, Priests and Faithful of the Whole Catholic World.

"Priestly celibacy has been guarded by the Church for centuries as a brilliant jewel, and retains its value undiminished even in our time when the outlook of men and the state of the world have undergone such profound changes.

"Amid the modern stirrings of opinion, a tendency has also been manifested, and even a desire expressed, to ask the Church to re-examine this characteristic institution. It is said that in the world of our time the observance of celibacy has come to be difficult or even impossible.

"2. This state of affairs is troubling consciences, perplexing some priests and young aspirants to the priesthood; it is a cause for alarm in many of the faithful and constrains Us to fulfill the promise We made to the Council Fathers. We told them that it was Our intention to give new luster and strength to priestly celibacy in the world of today. (1) Since saying this We have, over a considerable period of time earnestly implorred the enlightenment and assistance of the Holy Spirit and have examined before God opinions and petitions which have come to Us from all over the world, notably from many pastors of God's Church.

"Some Serious Questions

"3. The great question concerning the sacred celibacy of the clergy in the Church has long been before Our mind in its deep seriousness: must that grave, ennobling obligation remain today for those who have the intention of receiving major orders? Is it possible and appropriate nowadays to observe such an obligation? Has the time not come to break the bond linking celibacy with the priesthood in the Church? Could the difficult observance of it not be made optional? Would this not be a way to help the priestly ministry and facilitate ecumenical approaches? And if the golden law of sacred celibacy is to remain, what reasons are there to show that it is holy and fitting? What means are to be taken to observe it, and how can it be changed from a burden to a help for the priestly life?

"4. Our attention has rested particularly on the objections which have been and are still made in various forms against the retention of sacred celibacy. in virtue of Our apostolic office We are obliged by the importance, and indeed the complexity, of the subject to give faithful consideration to the facts and the problems they involve, at the same time bringing to them—as it is Our duty and Our mission to do—the light of truth which is Christ. Our intention is to do in all things the will of Him who has called Us to this office and to show what we are in the Church: the servant of the servants of God."


It should be obvious that this is another attempt at doing the same thing. As if no one would notice the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Even if married priests were to become the norm in the west, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Although the Church has always preferred celibate priests, the current rule only dates from the reign of Pope Gregory VII(1073-1085), and even after imposing that rule, it was widely flouted with both married priests being common until just before the eve of the Reformation. Because marriage was technically not allowed many priests simply cohabited with their lovers outside of wedlock. Their congregations were aware of this state of affairs and there is little evidence that they were offended by it.

For the first 1000+ years of Church history, married priests were at least as common and often more common than celibate priests. Celibacy has always been an extremely difficult rule to enforce, this is not a new problem.


If we adopt the practice of the Eastern Churches, where celibacy is preferred but married men are often ordained and bishops are always chosen from among the celibate clergy, it would not, I think, be a huge disaster. And it if helps to alleviate the priest shortage, it might prove to be beneficial. In my diocese, 40 parishes were recently closed due to a lack of priests. We already have married deacons if some of them could be raised to the priesthood, maybe we wouldn't have had to close all those parishes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:37 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
The "priest shortage" is a False argument.

You obviously aren't a priest or involved in professional Catholic ministry. Perhaps the shortage of priests, which in some places is severe, isn't a reason to ordain married men. But to deny the argument itself is just ridiculous.

Hint: I work closely with a married Roman Catholic priest. Guess one of the major factors in his being allowed to be ordained into the priesthood after his conversion?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Even if married priests were to become the norm in the west, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Although the Church has always preferred celibate priests, the current rule only dates from the reign of Pope Gregory VII(1073-1085), and even after imposing that rule, it was widely flouted with both married priests being common until just before the eve of the Reformation. Because marriage was technically not allowed many priests simply cohabited with their lovers outside of wedlock. Their congregations were aware of this state of affairs and there is little evidence that they were offended by it.

For the first 1000+ years of Church history, married priests were at least as common and often more common than celibate priests. Celibacy has always been an extremely difficult rule to enforce, this is not a new problem.


If we adopt the practice of the Eastern Churches, where celibacy is preferred but married men are often ordained and bishops are always chosen from among the celibate clergy, it would not, I think, be a huge disaster. And it if helps to alleviate the priest shortage, it might prove to be beneficial. In my diocese, 40 parishes were recently closed due to a lack of priests. We already have married deacons if sone of them could be raised to the priesthood, maybe we wouldn't have had to close all those parishes.




The "priest shortage" is a False argument. This is about ending or making celibacy optional. In 1967, when there was no priest shortage, Pope Paul VI wrote:



"To the Bishops, Priests and Faithful of the Whole Catholic World.

"Priestly celibacy has been guarded by the Church for centuries as a brilliant jewel, and retains its value undiminished even in our time when the outlook of men and the state of the world have undergone such profound changes.

"Amid the modern stirrings of opinion, a tendency has also been manifested, and even a desire expressed, to ask the Church to re-examine this characteristic institution. It is said that in the world of our time the observance of celibacy has come to be difficult or even impossible.

"2. This state of affairs is troubling consciences, perplexing some priests and young aspirants to the priesthood; it is a cause for alarm in many of the faithful and constrains Us to fulfill the promise We made to the Council Fathers. We told them that it was Our intention to give new luster and strength to priestly celibacy in the world of today. (1) Since saying this We have, over a considerable period of time earnestly implorred the enlightenment and assistance of the Holy Spirit and have examined before God opinions and petitions which have come to Us from all over the world, notably from many pastors of God's Church.

"Some Serious Questions

"3. The great question concerning the sacred celibacy of the clergy in the Church has long been before Our mind in its deep seriousness: must that grave, ennobling obligation remain today for those who have the intention of receiving major orders? Is it possible and appropriate nowadays to observe such an obligation? Has the time not come to break the bond linking celibacy with the priesthood in the Church? Could the difficult observance of it not be made optional? Would this not be a way to help the priestly ministry and facilitate ecumenical approaches? And if the golden law of sacred celibacy is to remain, what reasons are there to show that it is holy and fitting? What means are to be taken to observe it, and how can it be changed from a burden to a help for the priestly life?

"4. Our attention has rested particularly on the objections which have been and are still made in various forms against the retention of sacred celibacy. in virtue of Our apostolic office We are obliged by the importance, and indeed the complexity, of the subject to give faithful consideration to the facts and the problems they involve, at the same time bringing to them—as it is Our duty and Our mission to do—the light of truth which is Christ. Our intention is to do in all things the will of Him who has called Us to this office and to show what we are in the Church: the servant of the servants of God."


It should be obvious that this is another attempt at doing the same thing. As if no one would notice the past.



As I said so what? A married priesthood is not immoral or heretical or contrary to tradition. It may well be true then allowing married men to become priests would do nothing to alleviate the priest shortage and I'm open to the argument that that's true. What to act as if suggesting that may be having a few married priests it's just unspeakably evil seems to me ridiculous.

I'm not even advocating the idea of a married priesthood I'm simply saying that if it were to happen it would not be some horrible thing like legalizing abortion or gay marriage.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:11 pm 
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It's not heretical but it definitely is contrary to the tradition of the Latin rite. Other rites and Churches in communion with the Holy See have their own traditions, but the tradition of the Latin rite is that priests are celibate.

One amusing thing was that the Synod recommended the priestly ordination of married permanent deacons in the Amazon region. There are very few such men.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
It's not heretical but it definitely is contrary to the tradition of the Latin rite. Other rites and Churches in communion with the Holy See have their own traditions, but the tradition of the Latin rite is that priests are celibate.

Spot on!

Peregrinator wrote:
One amusing thing was that the Synod recommended the priestly ordination of married permanent deacons in the Amazon region. There are very few such men.

And using the ultima ratio of shortage, pointing out a shortage of deacons as well, then fine young men and women should surely be allowed in the priesthood. In this limited case. Just in the Amazon Basin. For a little while.

In short, let's allow the dromedary's ears under the tent side. Or, maybe, his eyes. Well, given that he can see and hear, let's let him slip his whole head in as well. In this limited case. Just in the Amazon Basin. For a little while.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
In short, let's allow the dromedary's ears under the tent side. Or, maybe, his eyes. Well, given that he can see and hear, let's let him slip his whole head in as well. In this limited case. Just in the Amazon Basin. For a little while.


if his ears were in, wouldn't his eyes already preceded them? :scratch: :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:20 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
Highlander wrote:
In short, let's allow the dromedary's ears under the tent side. Or, maybe, his eyes. Well, given that he can see and hear, let's let him slip his whole head in as well. In this limited case. Just in the Amazon Basin. For a little while.


if his ears were in, wouldn't his eyes already preceded them? :scratch: :mrgreen:

Not if he's an African swallow .... er, dromedary.

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