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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:39 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
"because JP2 said so" is not an actual reason that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood.


Almost verbatim what I said to someone else via pm. ::):


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
"because JP2 said so" is not an actual reason that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood.



Yes. It is. You should read the full text.

No. It is not. It's exactly the opposite. He said it because women cannot be ordained.


OK, I get this.

It underpins the reason so may "why"s have been asked. Because the answers given have not been the answer. And because several do not understand why their answer is not the answer.


BINGO!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:44 pm 
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A prize? I'll take the toaster.

These discussions have been beneficial for me as they have highlighted the misperception of some of the office of the Pope in Catholicism. By Catholics and non-Catholics. The canard that the Pope rules, temporally and spiritually, is not correct, but it still exists.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:58 pm 
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The Catholic Church was given the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. The Pope is a servant like any other servant, and his position was ultimately decided by the Holy Spirit. I've never heard any 'old canard' about the Pope and I'm... uh... old? Aged? I've been around for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:07 pm 
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Well-seasoned :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Well. It's nice to see you threaten to eat someone other than me for a change. :swoon

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:15 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Well. It's nice to see you threaten to eat someone other than me for a change. :swoon


Well-seasoned, with a gherkin relish.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Well-seasoned :fyi:



Thank you. I'm going to use that.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Norwegianblue wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Well. It's nice to see you threaten to eat someone other than me for a change. :swoon


Well-seasoned, with a gherkin relish.

:swoon

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:43 pm 
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Norwegianblue wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Well. It's nice to see you threaten to eat someone other than me for a change. :swoon


Well-seasoned, with a gherkin relish.

:cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:50 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
"because JP2 said so" is not an actual reason that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood.

theJack wrote:
:roll:


What?


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
The Catholic Church was given the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. The Pope is a servant like any other servant, and his position was ultimately decided by the Holy Spirit. I've never heard any 'old canard' about the Pope and I'm... uh... old? Aged? I've been around for a while.

The mentality of the "liberal" or "progressive"Catholic is always the same: whenever they are told "no" they respond that the answer is ambiguous and unclear and the question is still open. And whenever they are told "yes" they declare that the debate is over and the matter is settled. So, John Paul II's declaration on women's ordination is "unclear", but the Novus Ordo is the only legitimate Mass because Paul VI said so therefore we "reactionaries" need to get over our "fixation" on the Latin Mass and get with the Novus Ordo program immediately.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
The Catholic Church was given the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. The Pope is a servant like any other servant, and his position was ultimately decided by the Holy Spirit. I've never heard any 'old canard' about the Pope and I'm... uh... old? Aged? I've been around for a while.

The mentality of the "liberal" or "progressive"Catholic is always the same: whenever they are told "no" they respond that the answer is ambiguous and unclear and the question is still open. And whenever they are told "yes" they declare that the debate is over and the matter is settled. So, John Paul II's declaration on women's ordination is "unclear", but the Novus Ordo is the only legitimate Mass because Paul VI said so therefore we "reactionaries" need to get over our "fixation" on the Latin Mass and get with the Novus Ordo program immediately.



Pope Benedict once said that we should be Catholics. Any other word in front of that was not the point of being Catholic.

The sad truth is that those who don't like, up to and including those who hate the Church, assign labels to it. Labels based on politics. A secular liberal or progressive is almost always against what the Church teaches. So what does a "liberal" or "progressive" Catholic actually end up doing by playing games that amount to: That's vague, because I want it to be. Or, that's good because I want it to be? And telling other Catholics to accept their decisions literally because they said so? Because if you don't get their permission/blessing, they'll call you names? Or claim/cause confusion or ambiguity? Getting their way - because that is what they want - is not right.

I urge all reading to listen to and examine if there is anything behind the comments of dissenters. Also, realize that some people who are Catholic want the Church their way - not the way it is. And there are those on forums like this one who want to cause confusion.

The Church said - investigate why the Church said something and accept.

Somebody else, including some Catholics, said - read, consider and reject. We do not belong to the "Church of somebody else."

Any Catholic who dissents needs a clear and unambiguous reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
The Catholic Church was given the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. The Pope is a servant like any other servant, and his position was ultimately decided by the Holy Spirit. I've never heard any 'old canard' about the Pope and I'm... uh... old? Aged? I've been around for a while.

The mentality of the "liberal" or "progressive"Catholic is always the same: whenever they are told "no" they respond that the answer is ambiguous and unclear and the question is still open. And whenever they are told "yes" they declare that the debate is over and the matter is settled. So, John Paul II's declaration on women's ordination is "unclear", but the Novus Ordo is the only legitimate Mass because Paul VI said so therefore we "reactionaries" need to get over our "fixation" on the Latin Mass and get with the Novus Ordo program immediately.


good analysis.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:00 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
The Catholic Church was given the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. The Pope is a servant like any other servant, and his position was ultimately decided by the Holy Spirit. I've never heard any 'old canard' about the Pope and I'm... uh... old? Aged? I've been around for a while.

The mentality of the "liberal" or "progressive"Catholic is always the same: whenever they are told "no" they respond that the answer is ambiguous and unclear and the question is still open. And whenever they are told "yes" they declare that the debate is over and the matter is settled. So, John Paul II's declaration on women's ordination is "unclear", but the Novus Ordo is the only legitimate Mass because Paul VI said so therefore we "reactionaries" need to get over our "fixation" on the Latin Mass and get with the Novus Ordo program immediately.

Pope Francis has made it clear that John Paul II's declaration on women priests is clear, and that the matter is not open.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:30 pm 
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So, as both the priesthood and diaconate are Holy Orders, the Pope has affirmed that women cannot be Deacons. Correct?

But, if so, why did the Pope establish the Pontifical Commission for the Study of the Diaconate of Women? And how is it that the final report of the Amazon Synod specifically recommended encouraging more men to study to become priests; sending ordained missionaries into the Amazon; and ordaining viri probati, “men of proven virtue,” including husbands and fathers already active within Amazonian parishes -- married priests?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:26 pm 
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So, as both the priesthood and diaconate are Holy Orders, the Pope has affirmed that women cannot be Deacons. Correct?
That is not quite open-and-shut. If St. JP II had meant "deacons," he could have said deacons. It seems reasonable to infer that the unity of the sacrament of Order implies that women can't be deacons if they can't be priests, and in fact I don't think it's reasonable to infer that, but he didn't say so.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:31 pm 
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Regarding the issue of married priests, I think the difference there is that while female priests are an intrinsic impossibility (and therefore the Church has no jurisdiction to claim that women can be ordained), married priests are obviously not. The position calling for a celibate priesthood is, I think, a manner of canon law (Obi or someone else, correct me if that's misstated). As such, the Church does have jurisdiction, at least in some cases, to make exceptions and allow for (and maybe even encourage) men to enter into the priesthood regardless of their marital status. I would assume the argument there would be one from prudence and would probably have to happen on lines analogous to the employment of EMHCs -- not perfect or preferred, but allowable in certain situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
So, as both the priesthood and diaconate are Holy Orders, the Pope has affirmed that women cannot be Deacons. Correct?
That is not quite open-and-shut. If St. JP II had meant "deacons," he could have said deacons. It seems reasonable to infer that the unity of the sacrament of Order implies that women can't be deacons if they can't be priests, and in fact, I don't think it's reasonable to infer that, but he didn't say so.


As I have said elsewhere, it would be nothing less than asinine fatuity to argue that even though women cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders to be ordained as priests, they can nevertheless receive that sacrament to be ordained as deacons. This is not a coherent or logically defensive position and no one who claims to be proposing it really means it, rather they only say it because they hope to create a slippery slope that will lead to women priests and bishops.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:59 pm 
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It is in canon law, but it was there before there was such a thing as canon law, and while it's not of divine precept, it's not an arbitrary human invention either.

Doom, I'm not arguing that it actually is possible; I'm just saying that the impossibility of ordaining women to the diaconate is a corollary of what he said, not something he actually said.

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