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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:49 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
But the final document approves both, with 2/3rd of the bishops there manifesting their heterodoxy in voting for it.

Francis already called a commission to study women deacons that concluded. That he is calling another one doesn't bode well. He has already neglected his duty in confirming his brethren, given active scandal, supervised idolatry. I don't expect anything other than undermining the faith through ambiguity, and selective "pastoral negelect"

What do you mean it "doesn't bode well"? I fail to see why this possible change could be a problem. Originally priests were allowed to marry, so there is no fundamental reason why priests shouldn't again be allowed to marry. And there are currently some married priests.

And why on earth shouldn't there be women deacons? We are not some separate species, we are as human as men, there is no fundamental reason why women cannot be deacons.

Some people have a psychological problem with change, which shouldn't prevent change when it's beneficial and necessary, which it often is.




The change proposed is wrong. The Catholic Church is not an other political entity. The Church has no authority to ordain women. Certain changes are not possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
1HCaAC wrote:
Zeno wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
But the final document approves both, with 2/3rd of the bishops there manifesting their heterodoxy in voting for it.

Francis already called a commission to study women deacons that concluded. That he is calling another one doesn't bode well. He has already neglected his duty in confirming his brethren, given active scandal, supervised idolatry. I don't expect anything other than undermining the faith through ambiguity, and selective "pastoral negelect"

What do you mean it "doesn't bode well"? I fail to see why this possible change could be a problem. Originally priests were allowed to marry, so there is no fundamental reason why priests shouldn't again be allowed to marry. And there are currently some married priests.

And why on earth shouldn't there be women deacons? We are not some separate species, we are as human as men, there is no fundamental reason why women cannot be deacons.

Some people have a psychological problem with change, which shouldn't prevent change when it's beneficial and necessary, which it often is.


*sigh*

There are so many errors in that post I wouldn't know where to start.

Agree.

Start with one thing, either of you, or anyone, point out one error in my post.


Do you have any actual knowledge of clerical celibacy and clerical continence in the Catholic Church?

Have you ever read something like this?

Quote:
Continent cohabitation expressed trust in the nobility of human love to combine marital affection with the values of the consecrated clerical state. Paulinus of Nola (d. 431) and Pseudo-Jerome (ca. 417?) indicate a warm spirituality for those embracing this new life. Yet the difficulties of the discipline were not unappreciated by the Church authorities. The necessary conditions for this life was a constant concern, Pope Gregory the Great deeming it "harsh and inopportune" (durum atque incompetens) to expect its observance from the unprepared. A return to conjugal relations, after all, was often considered to be as serious a sin as adultery, the cleric being punished by reduction to the lay state. Councils also occupied themselves with the details of sleeping arrangements to avoid possible scandal to the faithful. A shortage of vocations due to the rapid growth of the Church was not to be taken as an excuse for mitigating traditional rules. Finally, because of the real possibilities of incontinence, and departing from earlier practice, total physical separation would be recommended or even sometimes required.


Have you read some of the canons that came out of Arles IV (524), Lyons (583), and Toledo III (589) to form your conscience on this issue?

Or are your opinions grounded in some notion like, "I just feel like this should be allowed." -- ???


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:33 pm 
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It's got nothing to do with feelings. I just don't see how the possibility of more married priests is anything to worry about when there are already married priests in the Catholic Church and it's nothing to worry about.

I would think that Catholics living in places where there is such a shortage of priests that there is no mass for them to attend, no confession, no communion, no anointing of the sick, etc, is something to worry about. If allowing married priests allows Catholics in these places to participate like the rest of us are able to, then that's something to be pleased about, not something to worry about.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:21 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
It's got nothing to do with feelings. I just don't see how the possibility of more married priests is anything to worry about when there are already married priests in the Catholic Church and it's nothing to worry about.

I would think that Catholics living in places where there is such a shortage of priests that there is no mass for them to attend, no confession, no communion, no anointing of the sick, etc, is something to worry about. If allowing married priests allows Catholics in these places to participate like the rest of us are able to, then that's something to be pleased about, not something to worry about.



There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. That cannot be ignored.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:30 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
.... change when it's beneficial and necessary, which it often is.


It may be often, but now and in the future, in these cases, it is not and won't be.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:05 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
It's got nothing to do with feelings. I just don't see how the possibility of more married priests is anything to worry about when there are already married priests in the Catholic Church and it's nothing to worry about.

I would think that Catholics living in places where there is such a shortage of priests that there is no mass for them to attend, no confession, no communion, no anointing of the sick, etc, is something to worry about. If allowing married priests allows Catholics in these places to participate like the rest of us are able to, then that's something to be pleased about, not something to worry about.


Your position boils down to, as I read it, "I would like to have married priests and female deacons because ..... followed by your opinions, buttressed by the crowning argument that you don't worry about your opinions, nor the conclusions that invariably follow them. And that others should worry when their opinion is contrary to yours. The Alfred E. Neuman position, I believe.

Further, you posit a problem that does not exist. The Synod, as I recall, was to address the phenomenon of not having the services of a priest ... "enough". Whatever "enough" is. Modernity, which demands constant convenience, defines it as having access to something or someone whenever desired and, in essence, upon demand.

I live in New Mexico, which historically, experienced the same issues as does Amazonia. Particularly, the dearth of priests. And, which to this day, retains a strong, overt, and pervasive Catholic faith. Flavored by native culture and changes that an isolated Hispanic people underwent, the Church adapted and triumphed. Without heresy.*

*Arguable, but not in the context of married priests and amazon deacons.

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Benedicamus Domino!
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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:29 pm 
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The Alfred E. Neuman position is "What, me worry?' In other words, Why worry?


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:32 pm 
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IOW, I'm not worried and why should I? And you shouldn't, neither.

BTW, I think that the core of this very argument is addressed in this article. Although not Catholic, it does point out the theological basis of a position that leads to married priests and amazon deacons.

https://babylonbee.com/news/progressive-evangelical-leaders-meet-affirm-doctrine-sola-feels

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At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 pm 
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It has been consistently taught that a celibate priesthood is superior. Even the Easterns recognize this. It isn't doctrinal. If it is truly needed to allow some married deacons to be ordained as priests in the amazon, I wouldn't have any problem with suspending the discipline there. Preferably for a time only.

However, by no means does that imply that we should do so elsewhere. Just because one place is not able to enjoy something good doesn't mean you take it from everyone.

The problem is that so many gleefully clamor for the destruction of something good. They want the tradition of celibacy destroyed, and that is just evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:14 am 
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Yes, evil wants its way. Here, you can be a priest and married. That sounds like a job incentive as opposed to a commitment to God. Celibacy is superior.

And where are all the current married priests? I don't think any are waiting to go to the Amazon.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
It's got nothing to do with feelings. I just don't see how the possibility of more married priests is anything to worry about when there are already married priests in the Catholic Church and it's nothing to worry about.

I would think that Catholics living in places where there is such a shortage of priests that there is no mass for them to attend, no confession, no communion, no anointing of the sick, etc, is something to worry about. If allowing married priests allows Catholics in these places to participate like the rest of us are able to, then that's something to be pleased about, not something to worry about.


kinda makes you wonder how amazonia has 'survived' for .... what.... 500something years? I think the Spanish and the Portuguese showed up about 500 years ago? Has to have been at least 500.

Go back 200 years.
Go back 100 years.
Go back 60 years.

And suddenly this is pretty exclusively a problem about men not wanting to be celibate?

SMH. It's laughable that you think the rest of us are against this idea because you think we're just resistant to change.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:21 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Yes, evil wants its way. Here, you can be a priest and married. That sounds like a job incentive as opposed to a commitment to God. Celibacy is superior.

And where are all the current married priests? I don't think any are waiting to go to the Amazon.


That is a very good point.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:22 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
It has been consistently taught that a celibate priesthood is superior. Even the Easterns recognize this. It isn't doctrinal. If it is truly needed to allow some married deacons to be ordained as priests in the amazon, I wouldn't have any problem with suspending the discipline there. Preferably for a time only.

However, by no means does that imply that we should do so elsewhere. Just because one place is not able to enjoy something good doesn't mean you take it from everyone.

The problem is that so many gleefully clamor for the destruction of something good. They want the tradition of celibacy destroyed, and that is just evil.


Agreed on all points.

Although I'm sure nobody around here will have forgotten just how communion in the hand started.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
...And where are all the current married priests? I don't think any are waiting to go to the Amazon.


Touché!

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Benedicamus Domino!
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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:43 pm 
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1 Timothy 3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife,

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:37 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
1 Timothy 3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife,

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.

That was a limitation, not a requirement.

At that time the men to be picked from were all married. When they were ordained, they put their wives away. You know that right?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:52 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
1 Timothy 3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife,

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.

That was a limitation, not a requirement.

At that time the men to be picked from were all married. When they were ordained, they put their wives away. You know that right?


A hint of Sola Scriptura? In its practice, in certain circles, routinely justifies one's druthers.

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Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
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At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
1 Timothy 3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife,

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.

That was a limitation, not a requirement.

At that time the men to be picked from were all married. When they were ordained, they put their wives away. You know that right?

Well of course it was not a requirement. The point is it was allowed. So what's the big problem with having married priests nowadays in certain circumstances?

I didn't know "they put their wives away". How do you know "they put their wives away"? What exactly does "they put their wives away" mean? It sounds wrong. Did their wives have any say in whether they were "put away" or not?


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:20 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
1 Timothy 3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife,

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.

That was a limitation, not a requirement.

At that time the men to be picked from were all married. When they were ordained, they put their wives away. You know that right?

Well of course it was not a requirement. The point is it was allowed. So what's the big problem with having married priests nowadays in certain circumstances?

I didn't know "they put their wives away". How do you know "they put their wives away"? What exactly does "they put their wives away" mean? It sounds wrong. Did their wives have any say in whether they were "put away" or not?



You can continue to repeat what you want but it's incorrect. Celibacy is superior.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope: Female Deacons/Married Priests?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:44 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
...I didn't know "they put their wives away". How do you know "they put their wives away"? What exactly does "they put their wives away" mean? It sounds wrong. Did their wives have any say in whether they were "put away" or not?


If purchased, they were returned from the merchant whence they came. If borrowed, they were simply returned to their parents. If neither applied, there was usually a big closet in the local temple. The wives had a say, but only to each other.

You really don't know? As I recall, they removed themselves from their wives and lived a single, celibate life. But I could be wrong. Is there room in the closet?

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Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


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