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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:35 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
What you're doing is called "theistic personalism." That holds that God is just like us, only without a body and a lot more powerful. And it's wrong. In the apt phrase of the Anglican theologian J. B. Phillips, your God is too small. (I don't endorse everything he said, but the concept is sound; we all try to cut God down into something we can understand.)

Is the book sound?

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:50 am 
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Not in places. Phillips was an Anglican with a bit of a chip on the shoulder about Catholicism. He also takes potshots at several important ideas, such as our relative nothingness when compared to God.

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:54 am 
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If he invokes God's otherness against theistic personalism, then won't the same otherness also imply our relative nothingness?

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:08 am 
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Phillips isn't arguing against theistic personalism in particular. His thesis (which is sound) is that most people have an inadequate idea of God.

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:34 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A Catholic submits his conclusions to the "mind of the Church," so if, on my own, I would reach a conclusion that is opposed to the teaching of the Church--particularly when that teaching is definitive--I must conclude that the defect is in my reasoning and not in the teaching of the Church.

For LotE, at some point (I don't think it's a good place to start), one task is to demonstrate that his position does not conflict with definitive teaching of the Church.


Father, might I remind you that I am not Roman Catholic. The UCC has its own catechism. There is not mention, for instance, of "indulgences" anywhere in that catechism. Our Metropolitan, His Holiness Sviatoslav Shevchuk, said in an interview over a year ago, that the UCC is "Orthodox in doctrine praxis, and Liturgy." Being Orthodox does not mean being "RC Light" with a different and strange Liturgy - i.e., believing and accepting all that the Roman Catholic Church teaches. We have a very different view of soteriology, eschatology, ecclesiology, etc. Our spirituality is different. We use the Jesus Prayer, not the Rosary.

I am following the "mind of the Church" - The Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome Church which is the UCC. And my spiritual father, a Melkite seminarian studying for the priesthood, with whom I have discussed this issue, states that I have every right to state exactly what I stated here in this post.


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:38 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A Catholic submits his conclusions to the "mind of the Church," so if, on my own, I would reach a conclusion that is opposed to the teaching of the Church--particularly when that teaching is definitive--I must conclude that the defect is in my reasoning and not in the teaching of the Church.

For LotE, at some point (I don't think it's a good place to start), one task is to demonstrate that his position does not conflict with definitive teaching of the Church.


Since you opened this can of worms, I am going to spread them out on the floor.

Perhaps the Frankish bishops should have approached the Filioque clause in a similar manner. Had they done this, rather than going off half-cocked and intensely pressuring Pope Leo III and then Pope Leo IX to use the Filioque, we would still be a united Church. The mind of the Church was expressed at Nicea, wasn't it? Not only that, the Fourth Ecumenical Council of the united Church declared no one is to change the Creed and pronounced anathema on anyone who would do so.

I have the mind of the Church. It just isn't the particular church whose patriarch is located in Rome. It is the united Church prior to the lamentable and sad schism of 1054 AD


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:01 pm 
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We've been through the same thing countless times already. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:25 pm 
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That was not meant to bait you, Ed. I was responding to theJack. I specifically said that the place of your position with respect to the mind of the Church was not a good place to start.

Edit to fix error created by auto incorrect.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A Catholic submits his conclusions to the "mind of the Church," so if, on my own, I would reach a conclusion that is opposed to the teaching of the Church--particularly when that teaching is definitive--I must conclude that the defect is in my reasoning and not in the teaching of the Church.

For LotE, at some point (I don't think it's a good place to start), one task is to demonstrate that his position does not conflict with definitive teaching of the Church.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That was not meant to bail you, Ed. I was responding to theJack. I specifically said that the place of your position with respect to the mind of the Church was not a good place to start.

Then I think I take your response as agreeing with what I said -- certainly not with my own personal view as I can't recognize the authority of the mind of the Church, but with respect to the way a Catholic as opposed to a non-Catholic has to approach questions rooted in Authority.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:58 pm 
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For LotE, at some point (I don't think it's a good place to start), one task is to demonstrate that his position does not conflict with definitive teaching of the Church.


You have a very odd way of trying not to bait me. Good grief, after all the years you have interacted with me, are you really surprised that I would jump at this??? :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:31 pm 
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"I don't think it's a good place to start."

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:23 pm 
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*shrug* I'm at a complete lost for what Obi is trying to get at here.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:31 pm 
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I meant it was an issue that might occur later, but that we would profit more by starting with other issues.

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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I meant it was an issue that might occur later, but that we would profit more by starting with other issues.

:thumbsup:

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:28 am 
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While I totally disagree with Obi on this issue (and a few other issues), I admire and respect him for not resorting to personal attacks which have no bearing on the issue being debated.

Anyway, whatever anyone else may think and whatever cheap shots they may resort to, I do honestly have a life, and arguing about unedifying issues with people who are trying to uglify and diminish my beautiful faith in an absolutely loving merciful God, and then when their arguments fall short, they then resort to personal attacks, does not help me to live in a positive feeling of love and joy and compassion and good humour and peace in my heart. There are better, more positive things I can be doing, and anything more I say on this heavy issue would just be a repeat. I know there are other Christians including Catholics who believe God is infinitely merciful not sadistic, so I don't see the point of arguing with those who will never change their minds because they think the traditional Catholic Church can never have taught anything that needs to be reconsidered.


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
While I totally disagree with Obi on this issue (and a few other issues), I admire and respect him for not resorting to personal attacks which have no bearing on the issue being debated.

Anyway, whatever anyone else may think and whatever cheap shots they may resort to, I do honestly have a life, and arguing about unedifying issues with people who are trying to uglify and diminish my beautiful faith in an absolutely loving merciful God, and then when their arguments fall short, they then resort to personal attacks, does not help me to live in a positive feeling of love and joy and compassion and good humour and peace in my heart. There are better, more positive things I can be doing, and anything more I say on this heavy issue would just be a repeat. I know there are other Christians including Catholics who believe God is infinitely merciful not sadistic, so I don't see the point of arguing with those who will never change their minds because they think the traditional Catholic Church can never have taught anything that needs to be reconsidered.


Nobody is twisting your arm to make you participate in these discussions. Just know that when you make erroneous statements, espouse erroneous ideas, you will be corrected. How you take that correction is up to you, but you'll get nowhere arguing against the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
While I totally disagree with Obi on this issue (and a few other issues), I admire and respect him for not resorting to personal attacks which have no bearing on the issue being debated.

Anyway, whatever anyone else may think and whatever cheap shots they may resort to, I do honestly have a life, and arguing about unedifying issues with people who are trying to uglify and diminish my beautiful faith in an absolutely loving merciful God, and then when their arguments fall short, they then resort to personal attacks, does not help me to live in a positive feeling of love and joy and compassion and good humour and peace in my heart. There are better, more positive things I can be doing, and anything more I say on this heavy issue would just be a repeat. I know there are other Christians including Catholics who believe God is infinitely merciful not sadistic, so I don't see the point of arguing with those who will never change their minds because they think the traditional Catholic Church can never have taught anything that needs to be reconsidered.


Nobody is twisting your arm to make you participate in these discussions. Just know that when you make erroneous statements, espouse erroneous ideas, you will be corrected. How you take that correction is up to you, but you'll get nowhere arguing against the Church.



If you mean I'll get nowhere arguing with traditional Catholics who are not open to any possibility the Church hasn't traditionally taught, I entirely agree with you. If you mean I'll get nowhere in my life, I'll be the judge of that.


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
If you mean I'll get nowhere arguing with traditional Catholics who are not open to any possibility the Church hasn't traditionally taught, I entirely agree with you. If you mean I'll get nowhere in my life, I'll be the judge of that.


I'm saying that anything in the teachings of the Church that you disagree with are due to your defective reasoning, not the Church's. Take that as you will. You'll make no converts to your position here.


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If you mean I'll get nowhere arguing with traditional Catholics who are not open to any possibility the Church hasn't traditionally taught, I entirely agree with you. If you mean I'll get nowhere in my life, I'll be the judge of that.


I'm saying that anything in the teachings of the Church that you disagree with are due to your defective reasoning, not the Church's. Take that as you will. You'll make no converts to your position here.


I don't think that Denise Dee was looking for converts as much as entering into a discussion. The discussion was found on this page

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=96451&start=40

The question was a simple one: how do you know this is true?

I don't think that Denise was satisfied with the answer that was given, although from a Catholic standpoint, Father's answer is the correct one.


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 Post subject: Re: For TheJack - God is good
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
While I totally disagree with Obi on this issue (and a few other issues), I admire and respect him for not resorting to personal attacks which have no bearing on the issue being debated.

Anyway, whatever anyone else may think and whatever cheap shots they may resort to, I do honestly have a life, and arguing about unedifying issues with people who are trying to uglify and diminish my beautiful faith in an absolutely loving merciful God, and then when their arguments fall short, they then resort to personal attacks, does not help me to live in a positive feeling of love and joy and compassion and good humour and peace in my heart. There are better, more positive things I can be doing, and anything more I say on this heavy issue would just be a repeat. I know there are other Christians including Catholics who believe God is infinitely merciful not sadistic, so I don't see the point of arguing with those who will never change their minds because they think the traditional Catholic Church can never have taught anything that needs to be reconsidered.


Father and theJack believe in a merciful God; they do not want to diminish your faith. Quite to the contrary - they want to help you grow in faith, and that involves knowing God in a more perfect way. Independently of the Church, by reason alone, man can know that Good is sovereign, simple and changeless. Due to this, diminishing God's otherness presents a logical problem. This is why they deny that the word love can be used univocally, and this is why Siggy said you will get nowhere [in persuading them to your position].

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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