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 Post subject: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:41 am 
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1. Is the NRSV Bible okay in general?

2. Is the idea that the pentuatech was compiled from four traditions (J,E,D,P) sound?

3. Is the book of Job the oldest in the Bible?

4. Is the following sound?
Quote:
3 major promises of God-

1) Presence of God

2) Promised Land

3) Purified Progeny

When we break the commandments..

1st -
Presence of God will disappear...

Then... Promised land...It means.. Exile..


Then, Agony for the children of Israel...
- Enculturation


This was the concept of all traditions..


From this concept...

They derivated a story about... Creation...

God Made Human... As man & woman...


God gave commandments...

Man - disobedience - left the presence of God - Lost Eden , promised land - cain killed abel , lost purified of the Progenies
Israel - they worshiped many other lords - lost presence of God - got Exile - collapsed totally -


A devout and well-intentioned person shared these to me (and he believes these). Is anything off? I think he strives to be obedient to the hierarchy/Magisterium.

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Last edited by Jack3 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:48 am 
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1) it has more inclusive language than I would like, but is not awful.
2) St. JP II and B XVI accepted JEPD, but it has come under lots of challenge in recent years. I would be hesitant to use it for exegesis.
3) I've never heard that and find it highly unlikely to be true.
4) I'm confused.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:27 pm 
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FWIW, fundamentalist Bible scholars cautiously teach that Job is the oldest book in the Bible. They preface it with caveats, as no one really knows exactly when it was written, but certain passages (which ones exactly, I’ve forgotten, as it’s been 30 years since I did this study) lead them to believe that it was written within a few hundred years after The Great Flood. Of course, that and $5 will get you a small latté. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:08 pm 
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I'll spend my $5 at Culver's, please :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Priorities!

$5 got me a copy of Belloc's small pamphlet THE CATHOLIC AND THE WAR.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
3. Is the book of Job the oldest in the Bible?


FWIW, Jewish Tradition ascribes authorship of Job to Moses.

Since the book of Job mentions a person who has the same names as a one of Esau's descendants (Eliphaz), and he lived in a town that was the name of another one of Esau's descendants (Uz), then while it could have been written down first before the book of Genesis, never the less, it is not the first book, chronologically. These could be different people, we just have no way of knowing for sure.

There is also at the end of the book of Job in the early Greek translation called the Septuagint, there is an additional paragraph that identifies Job as the Jobab of Genesis 36:33-35, the second listed king of Edom. It reads as follows:
Quote:
It appears from the Syriac book [Aramaic version of Job] that he [Job] lived in the land of Uz, on the confines of ldumaea [Edom] and Arabia. Previously his name was Jobab. After taking an Arab woman to wife he gave birth to a son whose name was Ennon. His father was Zerah, descended from Esau, and his mother was Bosorras, so that he was the fifth from Abraham . . . . [There then follows the list of the ancient kings of Edom on the lines of Genesis 36:31-35.] And these are the kings which reigned in Edom, a country which he too governed .

There is no way or knowing if this is accurate or not, but it's at least a possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:49 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
1. Is the NRSV Bible okay in general?

2. Is the idea that the pentuatech was compiled from four traditions (J,E,D,P) sound?

3. Is the book of Job the oldest in the Bible?

4. Is the following sound?
Quote:
3 major promises of God-

1) Presence of God

2) Promised Land

3) Purified Progeny

[9:01 PM, 6/9/2019] Anil Sir Prathibha: When we break the commandments..

1st -
Presence of God will disappear...

Then... Promised land...It means.. Exile..


Then, Agony for the children of Israel...
- Enculturation


This was the concept of all traditions..


From this concept...

They derivated a story about... Creation...

God Made Human... As man & woman...


God gave commandments...

Man - disobedience - left the presence of God - Lost Eden , promised land - cain killed abel , lost purified of the Progenies
Israel - they worshiped many other lords - lost presence of God - got Exile - collapsed totally -


A devout and well-intentioned person shared these to me (and he believes these). Is anything off? I think he strives to be obedient to the hierarchy/Magisterium.




1 "Okay" in what sense? It has an imprimatur and has been approved for liturgical use in Canada. It is a fairly readable and reasonably accurate essentially literal translation. It's chief flaws are the excessive inclusive language which leads to many awkwardly worded passages, and it's tendency to de-Christianize the Old Testament. One bizarre characteristic is the use of the word "mortals" instead of "men", which makes it sound like an episode of "Bewtiched".


2. Again, "sound" in what sense? If you mean "is it heretical it contrary to the Faith?". The answer is a clear "no". If you are asking "is the theory actually plausible?". The answer is, to quote Balkai is "of course not, don't be ridiculous"

3. Possible, but unlikely. Fundamentalist scholars argue that it is the oldest book in the Bible due to to he fact that there are a lot of unusual Hebrew words in it that appear nowhere else in the OT. For reasons I can't remember, but which are probably wrong, they think the unusual words prove that it is written in a much older Hebrew dialect than the rest of the OT.

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Last edited by Doom on Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:53 am 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
3. Possible, but unlikely. Fundamentalist scholars argue that it is the Bible due to to he fact that there are a lot of unusual Hebrew words in it that appear nowhere else in the OT. For reasons I can't remember, but which are probably wrong, they think the unusual words prove that it is written in a much older Hebrew dialect than the rest of the OT.

Is that really their argument?

I mean, one of the difficulties of being fluent in Biblical Hebrew (aside from it being written in different eras) is that it is a small sample of what the actual language was. We don't have much evidence for daily speech, or even that many literary genres.

Job is quite different in theme and style. We would expect, whatever era, it would have unique vocabulary.

Heck, even with all the greater amount of works, there are words in Latin that show up once in one author, even words clearly with possible everyday use. Or there will be a word in Plautus that doesn't show up again in extant writing to Gellius or even later (centuries), but likely because it was the more common word in daily use (Plautus was before the cultivation of refined Latinity, and it took later authors to sometimes break from it too)

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:26 am 
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As far as I can remember, that is indeed essentially the argument.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:34 am 
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Based on my extensive research (I checked Wikipedia), that is pretty much it.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:08 am 
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He said, after all those, "The realization that what we heard from childhood, what we meant about Adam and Eve, is just a story ,may come like a shock. But don't make a scandal. Faith is more important".

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:14 am 
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There's a little more to the argument than that [i.e., the argument that it's early based on unique vocabulary]. I'll quote from Tom Constable's notes, not because he is necessary the best scholar on the subject, but because he does keep his material updated and, above all, it's free. No reason for me to quote from journals behind a paywall:

    Concerning the time the events recorded took place, there have been many views, ranging from the patriarchal age of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (beginning about 2100 B.C.) to the second century B.C. Internal evidence suggests that Job lived in the patriarchal period. The length of his life (he lived 140 years after his trials ended, 42:16) is similar to that of Terah (205 years), Abraham (175 years), Isaac (180 years), and Jacob (147 years). The writer measured Job's wealth in terms of his livestock. This is how Moses evaluated the wealth of Abraham and Jacob (1:3; 42:12; cf. Gen. 12:16; 13:2; 30:43; 32:5). The Sabeans and Chaldeans (1:15, 17) were nomads during the patriarchal period, but not later. The Hebrew word for "piece of silver [money]" (qesitah; 42:11) is found elsewhere only in connection with Jacob (Gen. 33:19; cf. Josh 24:32).

    Job gave his daughters inheritances along with their brothers, which was not done under the Law of Moses (Job 42:15; cf. Num. 27:8). Job was the priest of his family (1:5), a custom that became less common when nations in the Near East developed more organization.Names of people and places in the book were also common in the patriarchal age (e.g., Sheba, Tema, Eliphaz, Uz, Job). Genesis, the Mari documents, and the Egyptian Execration texts, all of which refer to life in the Near East at this time, also refer to these names. The preference for the divine name Shaddai, over Yahweh, may indicate a period before the Exodus (cf. Exod. 3:14-15). Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown believed that Job is probably the oldest book in the world.

I think the argument that the setting of the book is during the patriarchal age is pretty strong. The next question is when it was actually composed. I don't think there are any particularly compelling arguments for a late date--discussions on details available. I think some of the evidence in favor of an early date tends to be weak (i.e., the vocabulary argument); but more to the point, if the setting is pre-Mosaic, it doesn't seem terribly obvious why a post-Mosaic author would write about events more than a few centuries before his own time. And, typically, when writing a "period piece," as such would be, there's evidence of such in the text itself (i.e., simple errors or anachronisms in terms of geographical details, cultural practices, etc). Also, what would be the point of placing the story pre-Mosaic? I grant all these sorts of questions presuppose the whole account is fictional. One might claim that the story really happened and that it just wasn't written down until much, much later. But, again, what evidence do we have for that? It's just simpler to claim that the story existed in some written and oral combination until well into the Mosaic period. Perhaps a later Jewish author stylized it bit, but even there, that touching up seems minimal. I, then, think on those types of grounds that the essential composition is very early, whatever date we try to put on some supposed final composition.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:19 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
2. Is the idea that the pentuatech was compiled from four traditions (J,E,D,P) sound?

Logically sound? No.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:37 pm 
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My source is one of the best modern fundamentalist scholars, Dr. Gleason Archer's 'Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties', which is in many ways, a very useful book on alleged 'Bible Contradictions'. It is particularly useful for problems caused by bad translations. Archer was one of the best scholars of his time on ancient languages being fluent in more than 10 ancient languages and dialects. He was a member of the translation board for both the original 1971 NASB and the original 1978 NIV. What I am getting at is that he was no ignorant, snake handling, obscurantist fantatic holy roller, which is basically the stereotype of the fundamentalist.


However, for non-fundamentalists, Archer's 'answers' in his 'Encyclopedia' often leave much to be desired because they suffer from excessive literalism.

To give an example of his excessive literalism, one of the questions he addresses is 'each of the 4 gospels povides a different wording, so what were the exact words of the inscription over the cross?' To a non-fundamentalist, the answer to this question is 'we don't know the exact words, and it isn't important, the Bible doesn't necessarily provide the 'exact words' of anyone, but only a kind of short summary of what was said'. But to Archer, this isn't an acceptable answer, because he believed in the exact, literal word for word truth of every passage in scripture (no matter how illogical or inconsistent this insistence can be), so he tried to come up with a way to reconcile the 4 different wordings of the inscription so that they are somehow all true. But this is nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:05 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
He said, after all those, "The realization that what we heard from childhood, what we meant about Adam and Eve, is just a story ,may come like a shock. But don't make a scandal. Faith is more important".

:Bump :popcorn

Does this shed any light on the quote I gave?

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:43 pm 
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The historicity of Adam and Eve is, in my assessment, fundamentally different from the historicity of Job. Now, I'm of the opinion that the story really happened, and that for some of the reasons I've already addressed (in short, I think the argument for the early setting and accompanying argument for an early composition). But suppose it didn't actually happen. Suppose it's a play written to address what we today might call the problem of evil (or, slightly differently, suppose it's a play written to extol wisdom, and really the foundation of wisdom in the fear of the Lord). What doctrine is affected? I think exactly zero. On the other hand, suppose Adam and Eve are historical. Suppose they are theological stories, myths in the best sense of the word. Now you're going to have significant problems with original sin and a whole plethora of related doctrines.

So . . . yeah, my opinion - Job is a (stylized) historical account written not terribly long after the events themselves; yet if it does not record a historical event and/or was written rather late (say during the time of Isaiah), no doctrines whatsoever are affected. Indeed, the reading of the Book of Job itself isn't affected. The issues of the historicity of the events and the composition of the narrative just aren't terribly important from an exegetical and hermeneutical perspective. Very different story with the first chapters of Genesis.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Jack3, you want to read Humani Generis, especially 35-39.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Thank you. I'd already read it. He somehow appears to have gotten his opinions from, inter alia, the NRSV. I think something from after the NRSV was released will be moree effective in convincing him. He is, of course, a good and Godfearing person, helping the Church in many ways. He reads these things to know the Bible better.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:20 pm 
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I'm not sure what the NRSV has to do with it. That document is still in force.

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 Post subject: Re: NRSV and JEDP
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:56 pm 
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He said that the two accounts of creation are explained by the JEDP theory. I didn't know there were two, so I asked him. He asked me if I have the NRSV and sent me two screenshots, the second of which was titled (in the NRSV), '" Another account of creation".

The document is still in force, but I think a newer source will be more effective in convincing him. He respects Pope Benedict as an intellectual, and likes the CCC, if that means anything.

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