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 Post subject: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:39 pm 
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[as the holy office said in the 1800s] Even if the ritual of the schismatic group is the same...Even if there is nothing heretical or even if there is nothing immoral in it, just to join your prayer to schismatics, just to go there is mortally sinful.”

-Fr. Ripperger

Does the prohibition on attending the rituals of schismatics extent beyond the enforce canon law?

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:50 pm 
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I think he is contradicting the Principles and Norms on Ecumenism.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think he is contradicting the Principles and Norms on Ecumenism.


Is that to say the prior obligation was just a matter of canon law?

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:34 pm 
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I don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:02 pm 
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More pressing I suppose;

Are converts now forbidden from praying with their families?

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:17 am 
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No.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:10 am 
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Well, I don’t know Fr Ripperger, either. But I disagree with him on lots of things.

Yesterday someone at St Petersburg, Russia just greeted me on the feast of the Annunciation. Russian Orthodox people celebrate the feast of the Annunciation on April 7 instead of March 25. They still observe the Julian calendar.

They’re separated brothers...

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:25 am 
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I really would have to see the decrees of the Holy Office to which Fr. Ripperger is referring in context to be able to judge whether he is relating their content accurately. In addition, whether those decrees reflect the Divine law or merely ecclesiastical law that can be changed. I tend to think that they are ecclesiastical law since some degree of prayer in common with the Orthodox has been going on for centuries. I've heard, for example, in Ukraine, where Catholics and Orthodox have lived next to one another for a long time, in remoter regions the local Orthodox priest might go to the local Catholic priest for confession and vice-versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:25 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
More pressing I suppose;

Are converts now forbidden from praying with their families?

I would be curious about the context of Fr. Ripperger's statement. Last time I heard someone quoting him controversially, the quote was inaccurate and the context made a huge difference.

But in anycase, somewhere I made a chart comparing what had been held about participation in prayer before versus now. The two main relevant observations:

Private prayer (saying the blessing before meals) was never prohibited, as long as the prayer was not offensive and scandal was not given.

Any active participation in public prayer (thus liturgies) was forbidden absolutely, but it was disputed whether this was a matter of ecclesiastical law or natural law, when the prayer was not itself heretical or expressive of attachment to a schismatic sect, etc.

Passive participation (i.e observation) was never absolutely forbidden, but the potential dangers (e.g hearing heretical sermons) were sometimes banned in a way that would preclude observation save under special cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:46 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Quote:
[as the holy office said in the 1800s] Even if the ritual of the schismatic group is the same...Even if there is nothing heretical or even if there is nothing immoral in it, just to join your prayer to schismatics, just to go there is mortally sinful.”

-Fr. Ripperger

Does the prohibition on attending the rituals of schismatics extent beyond the enforce canon law?


The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated in 1983, is silent on this issue, but canon 1258 of the old Code (1917) had the following to say:

Quote:
Can 1258 §1. Haud licitum est fidelibus quovis modo active assistere seu partem habere in sacris acatholicorum.
§2. Tolerari potest praesentia passiva seu mere materialis, civilis officii vel honoris causa, ob gravem rationem ab Episcopo in casu dubii probandam, in acatholicorum funeribus, nuptiis similibusque sollemniis, dummodo perversionis et scandali periculum absit.


Active participation in non-Catholic religious services was forbidden, but a passive ("material") presence at those services for a grave reason (the canon lists civil duties, along with marriages and funerals, etc, as examples) was tolerated. Now, the word "toleration" does not mean that the Church approved of these scenarios as a positive good, but merely that she was willing to tolerate a lesser evil for the sake of avoiding a greater one.

The canon also mentions that scandal must be averted; a commentary on the 1917 Code I own states that Catholics must not set foot in a non-Catholic place of worship without bearing "no uncertain witness" to the one true faith.

While canon 1258 has been abrogated, canonical tradition cannot be so easily ignored, and nor can the doctrinal basis for many ecclesiastical laws be set aside. Bp. Athanasius Schneider stated that "the essence of modernism is the separation of doctrine and discipline".

From the Catechism of St. Pius X:

Quote:
Q. What else does the First Commandment forbid?
A. The First Commandment also forbids all dealings with the devil, and all association with anti-Christian sects.


In the days of St. Pius X, "Christian" was understood to refer only to Catholicism, while all of the sects of Protestantism were forthrightly referred to as "heretical", and the Orthodox Churches referred to as "schismatic". These terms are still valid, but today the Church has taken the approach to referring to these groups as "separated" ecclesial communities, and their members as "separated brethren" (which is rather misleading).

However, it remains a matter of doctrine (divine law) that Catholics should avoid association with non-Catholic religious worship. Canon law, which is subordinate to divine law and contains more specific formulations of the general principles outlined in divine law, gives us more specific guidelines to follow. No active participation in non-Catholic services, but a passive presence may be tolerated for a grave reason. Although canon 1258 has been abrogated, we must still follow the divine law.


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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:51 pm 
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Do you have any source where "Christian" did not include heretical and schismatic Christians?

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:31 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Do you have any source where "Christian" did not include heretical and schismatic Christians?


Not everyone who invokes the name of Christ is a Christian in the true and proper sense.

From para. 4 of Mortalium Animos:

Quote:
All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.


Pope Pius XI called then "pan-Christians", because they were not true Christians, but heretics masquerading as Christians by invoking the name of Christ; in reality, they were corrupting the dogmas of the Church.

The Syllabus of Errors condemned the following heretical proposition:

Quote:
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:20 am 
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All the baptized are Christian. I don't see the quotes as saying what you say. MA refers to a name by which that group is known, and SE says Protestantism is not equal to Catholicism.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:59 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
I don't see the quotes as saying what you say. MA refers to a name by which that group is known, and SE says Protestantism is not equal to Catholicism.


The *Syllabus* very clearly denies that Protestantism is another form of Christianity; ergo, Protestantism is not a Christian religion, and Protestant individuals are not Christians. For the sake of simplicity, some papal documents do refer to non-Catholics (mostly schismatics, but less so heretics) as "Christians", but never without making it explicitly clear that these persons are outside the Church, and are therefore not true Christians though they grant themselves that title.

None of that "separated brethren" language, which is ambiguous and can give the erroneous implication that the separation between denominations is simply an internal disagreement between parts of the same Church. This ambiguity, I think, has been a very large factor in confusing Catholics, and making many Catholics come to the misguided conclusion that they can participate in heretical and schismatic religious services.

This is not so. Such mixed worship is prohibited by divine law, regardless of whether the leaders of the non-Catholic religion claim to profess Christ.

Jack3 wrote:
All the baptized are Christian.


Flatly untrue; to be Christian, one needs to receive sanctifying grace and be incorporated into the one true Church of Christ, the Mystical Body. Although the baptisms performed by most Protestant denominations are valid, the Church since St. Augustine (and reinforced by the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas) has always been able to make a case against their fruitfulness in many cases, where the individual being baptised would not be properly disposed (having accepted heresy by joining a non-Catholic sect).

St. Thomas Aquinas identifies three elements of a sacrament:

1) The exterior sign (sacramentum tantum); this is the sacrament itself, which signifies and produces the other two elements. The exterior sign is made up of matter (water, for example) and form (the words).

2) An intermediate reality (sacramentum et re); this is the sacramental reality, which for baptism, is the character. It is signified and produced by the exterior sign, as well as signifying and producing the third element, the ultimate reality.

3) The ultimate reality (res sacramenti); this is the actual grace of the sacrament (i.e. sanctifying grace) which is the source of further graces which are needed to live as a child of God and as a soldier of Christ in accomplishing the work of the Kingdom, etc.

If the requirements of #1 are present, then the sacrament is valid, or truly conferred. If there exists a valid baptism, then #2, the character of baptism, is always present. However, #3 is not necessarily present because the person needs also to be properly disposed while receiving the sacrament, although #1 and #2 have nothing to do with the worthiness or disposition of the one receiving.

Perhaps an example may help. In confirmation, if the form and matter, etc, are correct, then the confirmation is a valid sacrament (i.e. truly conferred). However, say the person being confirmed is in a state of mortal sin, and as such, they are not properly disposed. Because of this, a barrier exists which deprives the sacrament, at least temporarily, of its ultimate effect. A person confirmed in a state of mortal sin may be confirmed validly, but they will not receive any graces until they are no longer in a state of mortal sin.

Similarly, if someone were to be baptized, but they had implicitly accepted heretical beliefs at that time, they would not receive sanctifying grace, and nor would they be incorporated into the Mystical Body. If, at a later date, they embrace the Catholic faith, then they will receive the graces, but only later on. So although Protestant baptisms are mostly valid, many of them are not fruitful, lacking the res sacramenti, so it is incorrect to say that all of the baptised are Christian, or belong to the same Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:19 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I really would have to see the decrees of the Holy Office to which Fr. Ripperger is referring in context to be able to judge whether he is relating their content accurately. In addition, whether those decrees reflect the Divine law or merely ecclesiastical law that can be changed. I tend to think that they are ecclesiastical law since some degree of prayer in common with the Orthodox has been going on for centuries. I've heard, for example, in Ukraine, where Catholics and Orthodox have lived next to one another for a long time, in remoter regions the local Orthodox priest might go to the local Catholic priest for confession and vice-versa.


Would that we could see so much more of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:35 am 
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Spes_nostra wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I don't see the quotes as saying what you say. MA refers to a name by which that group is known, and SE says Protestantism is not equal to Catholicism.


The *Syllabus* very clearly denies that Protestantism is another form of Christianity; ergo, Protestantism is not a Christian religion, and Protestant individuals are not Christians. For the sake of simplicity, some papal documents do refer to non-Catholics (mostly schismatics, but less so heretics) as "Christians", but never without making it explicitly clear that these persons are outside the Church, and are therefore not true Christians though they grant themselves that title.

None of that "separated brethren" language, which is ambiguous and can give the erroneous implication that the separation between denominations is simply an internal disagreement between parts of the same Church. This ambiguity, I think, has been a very large factor in confusing Catholics, and making many Catholics come to the misguided conclusion that they can participate in heretical and schismatic religious services.

This is not so. Such mixed worship is prohibited by divine law, regardless of whether the leaders of the non-Catholic religion claim to profess Christ.

Jack3 wrote:
All the baptized are Christian.


Flatly untrue; to be Christian, one needs to receive sanctifying grace and be incorporated into the one true Church of Christ, the Mystical Body. Although the baptisms performed by most Protestant denominations are valid, the Church since St. Augustine (and reinforced by the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas) has always been able to make a case against their fruitfulness in many cases, where the individual being baptised would not be properly disposed (having accepted heresy by joining a non-Catholic sect).

St. Thomas Aquinas identifies three elements of a sacrament:

1) The exterior sign (sacramentum tantum); this is the sacrament itself, which signifies and produces the other two elements. The exterior sign is made up of matter (water, for example) and form (the words).

2) An intermediate reality (sacramentum et re); this is the sacramental reality, which for baptism, is the character. It is signified and produced by the exterior sign, as well as signifying and producing the third element, the ultimate reality.

3) The ultimate reality (res sacramenti); this is the actual grace of the sacrament (i.e. sanctifying grace) which is the source of further graces which are needed to live as a child of God and as a soldier of Christ in accomplishing the work of the Kingdom, etc.

If the requirements of #1 are present, then the sacrament is valid, or truly conferred. If there exists a valid baptism, then #2, the character of baptism, is always present. However, #3 is not necessarily present because the person needs also to be properly disposed while receiving the sacrament, although #1 and #2 have nothing to do with the worthiness or disposition of the one receiving.

Perhaps an example may help. In confirmation, if the form and matter, etc, are correct, then the confirmation is a valid sacrament (i.e. truly conferred). However, say the person being confirmed is in a state of mortal sin, and as such, they are not properly disposed. Because of this, a barrier exists which deprives the sacrament, at least temporarily, of its ultimate effect. A person confirmed in a state of mortal sin may be confirmed validly, but they will not receive any graces until they are no longer in a state of mortal sin.

Similarly, if someone were to be baptized, but they had implicitly accepted heretical beliefs at that time, they would not receive sanctifying grace, and nor would they be incorporated into the Mystical Body. If, at a later date, they embrace the Catholic faith, then they will receive the graces, but only later on. So although Protestant baptisms are mostly valid, many of them are not fruitful, lacking the res sacramenti, so it is incorrect to say that all of the baptised are Christian, or belong to the same Church.


I think it would be good if someone else chimed in here.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:44 am 
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Spes_nostra wrote:
The *Syllabus* very clearly denies that Protestantism is another form of Christianity; ergo, Protestantism is not a Christian religion, and Protestant individuals are not Christians. For the sake of simplicity, some papal documents do refer to non-Catholics (mostly schismatics, but less so heretics) as "Christians", but never without making it explicitly clear that these persons are outside the Church, and are therefore not true Christians though they grant themselves that title.

This statement totally denies the nature of the Covenant of God and what it accomplishes. It appears that Point Number One you mention below supports the understanding that baptism works ex opere operato, and that if the formula is correct (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) it accomplishes what it is supposed to accomplish, which according to Scripture, is to place a person in Christ (Romans 6:3). To say that someone who is in a Protestant denomination, properly baptized, and has never known anything else from childhood, is not a Christian is both a denial of the efficacy of the covenant-making ritual known as baptism, as well as pretty arrogant. But then, we in the East have seen this arrogance at work for a long time.

Quote:
None of that "separated brethren" language, which is ambiguous and can give the erroneous implication that the separation between denominations is simply an internal disagreement between parts of the same Church. This ambiguity, I think, has been a very large factor in confusing Catholics, and making many Catholics come to the misguided conclusion that they can participate in heretical and schismatic religious services.


What is the Church? Is it an organizational body, or is it an ontological Body (i.e., the Body of Christ, i.e., Christ Himself) If one is baptized into Christ, and the Church is the Body of Christ (or turning that around, the Body of Christ is the Church) then if one is in Christ, one is in the Church. I do believe the Roman Catholic Catechism speaks of having an "imperfect union" when one is baptized but not in the organizational Church. The fullness of the faith rests in the Universal faith which was given to the Apostles. Those outside that faith, i.e., holding to either heterodox or heretical ideas are in a defective relationship. Protestants lose a great deal by not having the Sacrament of the Eucharist, for instance. When I began receiving the Eucharist in 2001 as a convert, within weeks I noticed that a sin that had plagued me all my life, even as a Protestant, no longer had control over me.

I find another problem with your definition is that it reeks of legal ordinances rather than of walking in love. The beloved Apostle said that all who love know God, not all who have ever single one of their doctrines spot on. Some of the most doctrinally precise people I have read online are some of the most vicious and nasty.


Quote:
This is not so. Such mixed worship is prohibited by divine law, regardless of whether the leaders of the non-Catholic religion claim to profess Christ.


On this we are in entire agreement. In Hebrews 8:5, Moses was warned not to tamper with the worship which God was showing Him. If we have come to know the fullness of the true faith, then anything less is adding man's ideas to that worship (either in addition or subtraction) and this is prohibited.

Quote:
Flatly untrue; to be Christian, one needs to receive sanctifying grace and be incorporated into the one true Church of Christ, the Mystical Body. Although the baptisms performed by most Protestant denominations are valid, the Church since St. Augustine (and reinforced by the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas) has always been able to make a case against their fruitfulness in many cases, where the individual being baptised would not be properly disposed (having accepted heresy by joining a non-Catholic sect).


Smells of both legalism and scholasticism, as if knowledge rather than love is the criteria by which one is saved. One gets the sense that you would also condemn all those who never heard of Christ in their lives? Is that true? If so, you are opposing what the Bible says in Romans 2:13-16. The keeping of the Law is the measure of salvation according to St. Paul, and the Law is love. It is not dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's" properly. I do understand you, however, since I am still working and praying to get what I am writing about deep into my heart. For me, for too long, it has been about judging people if they don't meet my standard and theology. I know this is wrong now, but I still gravitate towards it.

Quote:
St. Thomas Aquinas identifies three elements of a sacrament:

1) The exterior sign (sacramentum tantum); this is the sacrament itself, which signifies and produces the other two elements. The exterior sign is made up of matter (water, for example) and form (the words).

2) An intermediate reality (sacramentum et re); this is the sacramental reality, which for baptism, is the character. It is signified and produced by the exterior sign, as well as signifying and producing the third element, the ultimate reality.

3) The ultimate reality (res sacramenti); this is the actual grace of the sacrament (i.e. sanctifying grace) which is the source of further graces which are needed to live as a child of God and as a soldier of Christ in accomplishing the work of the Kingdom, etc.


Of course, as I read this, the thing that pops out to me immediately is seeing grace as a thing that God gives. In the East we do not look at grace in that manner. Grace is nothing less than God Himself giving Himself to us, and the experience of His energies working in us by dint of our union with Him. Thus, going back to John the Beloved Apostle, he who loves knows God. That is a very flat and unambiguous statement, but what I get out of it is that if one loves, the energies of God are somehow at work in Him.

Quote:
If the requirements of #1 are present, then the sacrament is valid, or truly conferred. If there exists a valid baptism, then #2, the character of baptism, is always present. However, #3 is not necessarily present because the person needs also to be properly disposed while receiving the sacrament, although #1 and #2 have nothing to do with the worthiness or disposition of the one receiving.

Perhaps an example may help. In confirmation, if the form and matter, etc, are correct, then the confirmation is a valid sacrament (i.e. truly conferred). However, say the person being confirmed is in a state of mortal sin, and as such, they are not properly disposed. Because of this, a barrier exists which deprives the sacrament, at least temporarily, of its ultimate effect. A person confirmed in a state of mortal sin may be confirmed validly, but they will not receive any graces until they are no longer in a state of mortal sin.

Similarly, if someone were to be baptized, but they had implicitly accepted heretical beliefs at that time, they would not receive sanctifying grace, and nor would they be incorporated into the Mystical Body. If, at a later date, they embrace the Catholic faith, then they will receive the graces, but only later on. So although Protestant baptisms are mostly valid, many of them are not fruitful, lacking the res sacramenti, so it is incorrect to say that all of the baptised are Christian, or belong to the same Church


Totally and completely wrong. If our sin affects the reception of God, then our sin is greater than God. Our lives are a journey towards holiness, one in which we never are completely free of sin. And in the East, we do not accept these ideas of "mortal" vs "venial" sin anyway. Seems to me that is just more fine parsing by scholastics.


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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:12 am 
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I don't see why you think "scholastic" is a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:56 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
I don't see why you think "scholastic" is a bad thing.


Because, as I understand it, it places the knowledge of God on the level of the intellect rather than the experience.

How did Abraham know God? Moses? David? How did any of the first century Christians know God? Through the intellect? Or through experience?

This was the big argument between Barlaam of Calabria and St. Gregory Palamas. St. Gregory taught hesychasm, the experience of knowing God through quiet (meditation) and experiencing the "uncreated light of God." Barlaam, in turn, contemptuously referred to Gregory and all who followed him as "navel gazers" (from their posture of meditation in which they stared at their navel.)


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 Post subject: Re: Mortal Sin to Attend Orthodox Rituals?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:30 pm 
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How did Abraham know God? Moses? David? How did any of the first century Christians know God? Through the intellect? Or through experience?

By thinking about what they had experienced. In other words, both. If all you want is experience, you end up with the Quakers.

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