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What did Jesus' death accomplish?
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Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  What did Jesus' death accomplish?

This might sound basic, but I don't know:

1. What did Jesus' death accomplish?

2. If Jesus defeated sin and death, why do people still go to Hell?

3. Was it hypothetically possible for God to redeem mankind without the Incarnation at all (by merely willing it)?

4. How can the Crucifixion affect sins committed by persons born later?

These questions were planted in me when a Christian explained these in a naturalist* way (like a mother giving up her mattress in solidarity with her son living in poor conditions abroad). I instinctively knew this was wrong*, but I couldn't figure out what the right thing was.

*I mean that this explanation fails to posit Christ as a true Saviour who conquered sin and death.

Author:  theJack [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

I want to be clear about my hope to see a distinctly Catholic answer and so my deferral on addressing your post directly. With that said, I do think it is worth noting that your question seems to look for something of a necessary causal relationship between the Cross and sin. For example, you ask if it is "possible" for God to forgive sins without the crucifixion, and you talk of "naturalist" explanations for dealing with the issues you raise (which, again, seem to imply an either/or). If that's on track, I'd suggest thinking about the crucifixion and its related elements in terms of fittingness rather than causal necessity. That way, it doesn't matter if there are any other logically possible explanations. What matters is, what has God chosen to demonstrate using this particular way (i.e., the Crucifixion of His only Son). Maybe a bit ironically, trying to argue these things from necessary causal relations rather than fittingness actually takes them out of the realm of faith entirely (insofar as they would no longer be based on articles of faith); and while there are great and wonderful things that can be known by reason, I would think that those related to God's actual plan of salvation would not be among them.

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

theJack wrote:
your question seems to look for something of a necessary causal relationship between the Cross and sin. For example, you ask if it is "possible" for God to forgive sins without the crucifixion... Maybe a bit ironically, trying to argue these things from necessary causal relations rather than fittingness actually takes them out of the realm of faith entirely (insofar as they would no longer be based on articles of faith); and while there are great and wonderful things that can be known by reason, I would think that those related to God's actual plan of salvation would not be among them.

I do not see myself presuming necessary causal relationships. Questions #1, #2 and #4 are interrelated and the spirit behind them conveys what I have in my heart to ask.

Quote:
What matters is, what has God chosen to demonstrate using this particular way (i.e., the Crucifixion of His only Son).

What I'm looking for is not what God demonstrated; but what happened through it, how it worked, what effect it had, in what way and to what extent sin was defeated.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

1) Through His passion, death, and resurrection (all parts of one act), Jesus reconciled sinners to the Father.
2) Not everyone takes advantage of that victory.
3) Yes.
4) I'm not sure I see the problem.

Author:  ForeverFaithful [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

In light of (3) does this distinction make sense

(a) Without Christ's death, all were indiscriminately under the power of death so Hades was not filled to the glory of God but just as a fact of human life

(b) On account of Christ's death, only those who reject God will be lost. Hell is now a place where the damned go so that God might be glorified in their punishment.

So Christ's victory in 3 can be understand as the movement from (a) to (b) in the order of Divine Justice. Does this make sense?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

(a) is incorrect.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Now that I'm on a computer:

All ad extra actions of God are to make manifest His glory. Therefore, the state of departed souls before the Atonement is to His glory.

I'm also concerned that the overall thesis sounds as if God's justice was not realized before the Atonement.

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
1) Through His passion, death, and resurrection (all parts of one act), Jesus reconciled sinners to the Father.

What does the word reconciled mean here? Does the fact that this victory has to be taken advantage of, imply some deficiency in the victory?

Author:  ForeverFaithful [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Now that I'm on a computer:

All ad extra actions of God are to make manifest His glory. Therefore, the state of departed souls before the Atonement is to His glory.

I'm also concerned that the overall thesis sounds as if God's justice was not realized before the Atonement.


What does ad extra mean?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Outside of the Godhead.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

"Redemption" is the undoing of the effects of Original Sin and of actual sins.

The victory is not deficient. It accomplished all that it was intended to do. The deficiency is in our failure to make use of what was given to us.

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Thank you.

Can you use an analogy please?

Author:  lbt [ Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Death of Jesus Christ means eternal life for us.

:D

Author:  theJack [ Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

Jack3 wrote:
Thank you.

Can you use an analogy please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

How has no one posted this yet :verymad: :soap:

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?

I blame gherkin.

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