Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 19 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:20 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Jacques Maritain, the CCC, and the Popes from St. John Paul II to Pope Francis spoke/speak often of human rights.

There has been a criticism of the concept of human rights from the Catholics Charles de Koninck and Alasdair MacIntyre, as well as the Anglican John Milbank.

My question:

Am I as a Catholic bound in faith or by religious submission to hold that human beings as individual subjects have particular subjective rights as liberalism claims?

I hope this is clear enough.

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:33 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39913
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Am I as a Catholic bound in faith or by religious submission to hold that human beings as individual subjects have particular subjective rights as liberalism claims?

What subjective rights did you have in mind? By the way: Generally speaking, I do not see how one can be bound to hold liberalism's rights claims or even to interpret the concept in the way that liberalism interprets it.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:15 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Am I as a Catholic bound in faith or by religious submission to hold that human beings as individual subjects have particular subjective rights as liberalism claims?

What subjective rights did you have in mind? By the way: Generally speaking, I do not see how one can be bound to hold liberalism's rights claims or even to interpret the concept in the way that liberalism interprets it.


Particularly, the idea of religious freedom as a right, but also the right to life and right to free speech.

But ultimately, right in general. Aren't all rights claims only intelligible in a particular social context, and consequently, not part of the innate dignity of humans?

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:32 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8600
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Am I as a Catholic bound in faith or by religious submission to hold that human beings as individual subjects have particular subjective rights as liberalism claims?

What subjective rights did you have in mind? By the way: Generally speaking, I do not see how one can be bound to hold liberalism's rights claims or even to interpret the concept in the way that liberalism interprets it.


Particularly, the idea of religious freedom as a right, but also the right to life and right to free speech.

But ultimately, right in general. Aren't all rights claims only intelligible in a particular social context, and consequently, not part of the innate dignity of humans?

In Papal Magisterium, life is a right, albeit with some exceptions like self-defense (eg Evangelium Vitae); free speech is not a right (eg Libertas); and religious freedom is a murky area.

Rerum Novarum and P12's 1941 Pentecost refer to rights too.

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:37 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Jack3 wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Am I as a Catholic bound in faith or by religious submission to hold that human beings as individual subjects have particular subjective rights as liberalism claims?

What subjective rights did you have in mind? By the way: Generally speaking, I do not see how one can be bound to hold liberalism's rights claims or even to interpret the concept in the way that liberalism interprets it.


Particularly, the idea of religious freedom as a right, but also the right to life and right to free speech.

But ultimately, right in general. Aren't all rights claims only intelligible in a particular social context, and consequently, not part of the innate dignity of humans?

In Papal Magisterium, life is a right, albeit with some exceptions like self-defense (eg Evangelium Vitae); free speech is not a right (eg Libertas); and religious freedom is a murky area.

Rerum Novarum and P12's 1941 Pentecost refer to rights too.


EV says abortion and euthanasia are intrisically evil, if that's all a right means then sure. It does seem however that modern liberalism works into the idea of right and idea of personal sovereignty (human beings are only to be treated as ends) which is what is problematic.

The word ius in Latin had a meaning in St. Thomas Aquinas, that was changed in later Scholastics (e.g. Suarez). It is from the latter that the modern idea of right comes (cf. Milbank) and that's partly why its problematic. I imagine there remains a sense in which one can speak of "right" without the later sense of ius

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:15 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76001
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
"Human rights" is a term that is so vague that it is pretty much meaningless

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:16 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 29082
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
No. You do not have to credit liberalism or believe in subjective, monadic rights.

Have you read John Lamont's Conscience, Freedom, Rights?

I would argue that the Church has recently adopted much of the language of liberalism, but infelicitiously, as the content of her teaching is hardly compatible with liberal conceptions of rights, and it obscures important distinctions.

Jacques Maritain's attempt to wed liberalism and Catholicism is hardly successful. And he knew it, if you read his latter works. And his bifurcation of man into person and individual, and so on is, frankly, incoherent straining to reconcile fundamentally opposed ideologies.

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:05 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
No. You do not have to credit liberalism or believe in subjective, monadic rights.

Have you read John Lamont's Conscience, Freedom, Rights?

I would argue that the Church has recently adopted much of the language of liberalism, but infelicitiously, as the content of her teaching is hardly compatible with liberal conceptions of rights, and it obscures important distinctions.

Jacques Maritain's attempt to wed liberalism and Catholicism is hardly successful. And he knew it, if you read his latter works. And his bifurcation of man into person and individual, and so on is, frankly, incoherent straining to reconcile fundamentally opposed ideologies.


I have not read Lamont but if I can find the time for it (sadly, that isn't the default) I would gladly.

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:31 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Am I as a Catholic bound in faith or by religious submission to hold that human beings as individual subjects have particular subjective rights as liberalism claims?

What subjective rights did you have in mind? By the way: Generally speaking, I do not see how one can be bound to hold liberalism's rights claims or even to interpret the concept in the way that liberalism interprets it.

yes, because liberals do not REALLY care about humans. They care about "the environment" and not of course, the environment in the WOMB.

If they really cared about human beings, they would not, for instance, encourage the Central and S. americans to come to our border, which entails possibly being raped and/or killed and etc.. and of course encouraging people to do things that are illegal never ends well.

they do NOT care about others. They are NOT the party of compassion. That is just one of the many huge LIES they have been foisting on us since Day One of their miserable existence (which Day One of existence, I guess, was Andrew Jackson, whose party was in conflict with Henry Clay's anti-slavery party.. the Whigs.. who became Republicans, Lincoln being the first Republican president.. Thank you, God for him!!)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:59 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:35 pm
Posts: 977
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knights of Columbus
flyingaway wrote:
liberals do not REALLY care about humans.


Yes I do.

Quote:
They care about "the environment" and not of course, the environment in the WOMB.


Why not both?

Quote:
If they really cared about human beings, they would not, for instance, encourage the Central and S. americans to come to our border, which entails possibly being raped and/or killed and etc.. and of course encouraging people to do things that are illegal never ends well.


Not sure I follow how encouraging people to flee gang violence and rape and/or murder is considered to be not caring about humans, but ok...

Quote:
they do NOT care about others.


Yes, I do.

Quote:
They are NOT the party of compassion. That is just one of the many huge LIES they have been foisting on us since Day One of their miserable existence (which Day One of existence, I guess, was Andrew Jackson, whose party was in conflict with Henry Clay's anti-slavery party.. the Whigs.. who became Republicans, Lincoln being the first Republican president.. Thank you, God for him!!)


You seem to be taking a rather subjective view of "compassion" in that I view "compassion" as allowing refugees and those fleeing violence in their home countries a safe place. But you don't see it that way. I'm not saying this to be argumentative or say that what you view as compassion (e.g. "the environment of the womb"), only that compassion has many facets, and there is not always a clear right vs wrong, Democrat vs Republican stance when it comes to it.

_________________
Vivat Jesus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:23 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
BrotherKnight wrote:
[y"]
)
Quote:

You seem to be taking a rather subjective view of "compassion" in that I view "compassion" as allowing refugees and those fleeing violence in their home countries a safe place. But you don't see it that way. I'm not saying this to be argumentative or say that what you view as compassion (e.g. "the environment of the womb"), only that compassion has many facets, and there is not always a clear right vs wrong, Democrat vs Republican stance when it comes to it.


i stand by my words. Being "compassionate" (so called) toward the people fleeing Central and S. america seems to always mean NOT being compassionate toward our own people. The Bible says in several places.. it talks about caring for your own, not turning your back on your own. One of the most important psgs is Mt 25:31 where Jesus says "When I was hungry, you gave me food, when I was [we can just fill in the blanks here, but: when I, Jesus, was in need of anything you cared..] and of course he went on to say that when one of his people (followers) was in need, it was really Jesus in need.. and those who helped him, whether they realized it or not, were helping not just a fellow human being but Him.

so the point is that Jesus wants us to put "the least of his people" first.
we have to put Americans first. If all Americans were doing well, then we should help other countries (while not letting dangerous people into our country, of course) But last time I looked, there are still plenty of Americans who are NOT doing well, many are homeless.. yet we are looking beyond our own country for people to help????


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:18 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
We're not talking about democrats, we're talking about liberalism as a philosophy. It doesn't matter if its Progressive or Classical, liberalism is the mainstream philosophy of political thought in the USA for both parties.

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:24 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:35 pm
Posts: 977
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knights of Columbus
ForeverFaithful wrote:
We're not talking about democrats, we're talking about liberalism as a philosophy. It doesn't matter if its Progressive or Classical, liberalism is the mainstream philosophy of political thought in the USA for both parties.


Fair enough. I fear I may have let my Democratic POV bleed over from the Politics forum into the Lyceum forum. I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction. For that, I apologize.

_________________
Vivat Jesus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 29082
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
BrotherKnight wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
We're not talking about democrats, we're talking about liberalism as a philosophy. It doesn't matter if its Progressive or Classical, liberalism is the mainstream philosophy of political thought in the USA for both parties.


Fair enough. I fear I may have let my Democratic POV bleed over from the Politics forum into the Lyceum forum. I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction. For that, I apologize.

Stephen Hauerwas once quipped that Americans were the most ideological of any people because we are not even aware of it. We have quasi conservative -liberals (GOP) and progressive -liberals (Dems), and the shared assumptions aren't even noticed, largely, because they are so ingrained we are even aware we assume them.

Conservative was coined as a political term by Chateaubriand, but most American 'conservatives' would call him socialist (as they call everything they dislike, no matter how far dissimilar to actual socialism)

The question here is whether recent magisterial teaching

1. Commits us to liberalism, at least its conception of rights
2. Implicitly, meaning that we must reject what the Church has explicitly taught in prior ages, not even that long ago, when she condemned these ideas, and therefore raises questions about deciding between magisterial pronouncements!

But Vatican II, at least, affirms that it upholds these prior teachings!

I think the answer lies in the attempt to communicate to "modern man" using his vocabulary, and the problem is the meaning is different, and this leads to confusion.

The traditional conception, fwiw, is that 'rights' derive from 'right', that is justice comes first, and rights founded in the object of justice are derived thus. Subjective rights (right as claimed personally, as a subject, giving a claim to act morally, to dispose of goods, etc) are, at best, derivative of objective right and conditioned by it.

This framework, e.g, fits with the Church's teaching that, while productive property is owned privately, its use is common! That is, it is directed by the common good, as an end, either indirectly by its disposition by its owner, or directly by political authority. That its use is as common readily justifies legal strictures on use, public easements, etc

But if we start with the liberal conception that justice is based on rights, and rights are first, individual, monadic claims. Hence things like Locke's claim of an absolute, unrestricted right to private property. But then we inherently have conflicts, and with no reference to any common good that such are derived from, there is no inherent basis to decide between competing rights. So liberalism decays into one of two extremes, libertarianism (which rails against the inherent statism of liberalism) or socialism/communism (which is derived from liberalism as a reaction to it). In the lesser extremes, liberalism extends to conservative -liberals (which involved a somewhat inconsistent wedding of Christian morals and liberalism, which results in degrading Christian ethics to a shell of itself) and progressive -liberalism (which shoe horns remedies against largely economic evils of liberalism, but continues liberalism 's alienation of man by tearing down all intermediate societies between the state and the individual, and exalts rebellion against nature)

I actually think it a little more mixed in the US. E.g concern for the environment is at tension with the exaltation of man's will as free choice, as undetermined by nature, but more in line with traditional conservative principles. And localism/communitarian concerns were "conservative" 6 0 years ago, but "liberal" now. The terms are rather vacuous!

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:29 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4973
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Can you say more about this?

Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The traditional conception, fwiw, is that 'rights' derive from 'right', that is justice comes first, and rights founded in the object of justice are derived thus.

I'm fairly certain I follow you, but I'm curious about the precision of the language here. You explicitly say justice comes first and refer to rights as "the objects of justice." That latter phrase I take for granted, but for reference, I'll quote a relevant portion of the Catholic Encyclopedia,

    He is in duty bound to strive to fulfil the designs of his Creator, he must exercise his faculties and conduct his life according to the intentions of his Lord and Master. Because he is under these obligations he is consequently invested with rights, God-given and primordial, antecedent to the State and independent of it. Such are man's natural rights, granted to him by nature herself, sacred, as is their origin, and inviolable. Beside these he may have other rights given him by Church or State, or acquired by his own industry and exertion. All these rights, whatever be their source, are the object of the virtue of justice. Justice requires that all persons should be left in the free enjoyment of all their rights.

I'm curious about in what sense justice is "first," as something is just if it "renders to each and to all what belongs to them [by right]." It seems, in some way, that natural rights come first insofar as man's nature and thus end is first; that what is right for him is relative to that nature, and thus what is just follows upon a proper recognition of those rights.

Can you walk me through the nuance I'm missing? Much appreciated.

*edited to fix improperly coded url*

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Last edited by theJack on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:17 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 29082
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
I don't actually trust the CE much... As I revisit it more I find more issues. But that said, can I recommend "Conscience, Freedom, Rights" by John Lamont?

In the meantime, even in the CE note that the obligations due to God and to the ends of nature precede said rights, and are cited as the reason they are granted!

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4973
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Sure - so it seems that the order is divinely placed obligations, which entail divinely established rights, which ground justice (as those rights are the object of justice); such that something is just if it renders to one what is due him by right so that he may meet his divine obligations. That's not at all to say that the rights Americans are used to speaking of--i.e., the right of free speech or of privacy or to private property--are entailed by the divine obligations. I regard that as a secondary discussion. I'm just curious as to the order of justice and rights as you have placed justice first and rights following. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm simply asking in what sense justice is first (at least, first relative to said rights).

And thank you for the recommendation. He's now on my reading list.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:29 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
the title of OP doesn't make sense

the Catholic Church is all about human rights. The whole purpose of the CC's Founder coming to Earth is human rights/dignity/salvation


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics Required to Believe in Human Rights?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:37 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4973
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
I'm fairly certain, FA, that the OP has in mind by "human rights" what western nations have meant by the term (and the way it is used in political and legal discourse) since the 50s and 60s. You should read this to get another perspective:

https://scholarship.law.nd.edu/cgi/view ... xt=ndjlepp

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 19 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: