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Author:  deleted_user [ Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Deleted

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Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Have you read Thomas Pink here?

Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Note well, that there are three possibilities

1. DH and previous teaching are reconciliable

2. DH is wrong

3. Previous teaching is wrong. Oh, and DH is wrong

See DH affirms explicitly previous teaching, including the duties of states to the true religion. Either the rest of the document fits with that, or the document contradicts itself.

Author:  deleted_user [ Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

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Author:  Jack3 [ Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

More Pink:
https://www.religiousfreedominstitute.o ... me7fu1z7wa
http://www.academia.edu/32742609/Dignit ... r_Leo_XIII

Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

I would suggest you are misreading Pink if you think he supports separation of Church and State! For one, his claim is related to the use of coercive force in religious matters. Even without that, the State still retains a duty to recognize the true religion, and the civil right endorsed in DH is limited by, not only public peace, but morality (as taught by the Church) and the freedom of the Church, which thus retains a privileged position

Author:  deleted_user [ Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

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Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Quote:
So, what do we do?

Pray.

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/11/letters pink defends his article in FirstThings.

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Christus_vincit wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I would suggest you are misreading Pink if you think he supports separation of Church and State! For one, his claim is related to the use of coercive force in religious matters. Even without that, the State still retains a duty to recognize the true religion, and the civil right endorsed in DH is limited by, not only public peace, but morality (as taught by the Church) and the freedom of the Church, which thus retains a privileged position


First, I'm not saying Pink supports separation of Church and State. All I'm saying is that putting Dignitatis Humanae into practice will lead to the practical application of the principles regarding this separation, and that is problematic.

A quote from the article another poster just linked:

"Our natural right to liberty, based on our human dignity, gives us a right not to be subject to coercive direction—to directives backed by punitive threats—save those issued by a competent authority. Once it is secularized and detached from acting on the authority of the Church, the state entirely lacks competent authority to coerce us in matters of religion; and so our human dignity gives us a right not to be coerced religiously by the state—exactly as Dignitatis Humanae says".

A few brief thoughts...

1) Discussions on whether the State has the right to "coerce" are moot because this was never the function of the State. The Church taught that the State has the obligation to restrict the public exercise of false religions; this has nothing to do with coercing others to accept the Catholic faith or forcing them to participate in Catholic religious practices.

2) Why doesn't the Church simply re-assert her authority over the State? Then maybe we won't have the secular mess called "modern society"... This seems to be a clear case of acquiescing to this godless world; there was clearly a shift in thinking in the 1960s, in which the Church is no longer a "sign of contradiction" (Lk. 2:34) but is now an entity which must "dialogue" with a world clearly not on equal footing with her.

3) It violates the natural order to allow the State to continue refusing this subordination to the Church.

4) Even if Dignitatis Humanae isn't teaching doctrinal error, the effects of accepting Pink's thesis - that the Church should continue acquiescing to the secularization in the modern world - are disastrous, and not at all conducive to the salvation of souls.

In any case, the failure of Church leaders to take steps to rectify the current state of the world, in which Church and State are acting as separate agents, the latter no longer subordinate to the former, indicates that the bishops do not view Dignitatis Humanae the same way that Pink does. And here we get back to the root of the problem: we can interpret Vatican II's ambiguous passages according to a "hermeneutic of continuity" or "in light of Tradition", but the vast majority of Church leaders do not.

So, what do we do?


I think you need to be clearer: eg What are the "principles" of separation of Church and state?

On #1, I do not understand the distinction that you are making.

#2, I think dialogue vs contradiction might be a false dichotomy - In ES, the Encyclical in which Pope St Paul brought forth the word and concept of dialogue, he refers to Pius XI and Pius XIII and says, "And what was this apostolic endeavor of theirs if not a dialogue?"

#3, I'm confused - Does subordination to the Church belong to the natural order?

#4, Are you saying that Pink claims that hat the Church should continue acquiescing to the secularization in the modern world? I'd like a source for that. (If anything, he is traditional.) What do you mean when you say secularization?

Author:  p.falk [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

In reading Pink I was fascinated by his explanation of how Maritain's philosophy helped provide the rationale for the 'roots' of a new 'official theology' on individual religious freedom (and not for the better).

Author:  deleted_user [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

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Author:  Closet Catholic [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

I do agree with Ratzinger/Benedict but it should be said that he does not use the term 'hermeneutic of continuity.' He talks, negatively, of a 'hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture' but contrasts this not with a 'hermeneutic of continuity' but a 'hermeneutic of reform.' The difference between the two opposed hermeneutics is not that the former (negative one) has discontinuity and the other continuity, but that the former has a disproportionate emphasis on discontinuity, leading to rupture, while the latter, being a 'hermeneutic of reform,' contains both continuity and discontinuity.

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Closet Catholic wrote:
I do agree with Ratzinger/Benedict but it should be said that he does not use the term 'hermeneutic of continuity.' He talks, negatively, of a 'hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture' but contrasts this not with a 'hermeneutic of continuity' but a 'hermeneutic of reform.' The difference between the two opposed hermeneutics is not that the former (negative one) has discontinuity and the other continuity, but that the former has a disproportionate emphasis on discontinuity, leading to rupture, while the latter, being a 'hermeneutic of reform,' contains both continuity and discontinuity.

He said "hermeneutic of reform, of renewal in continuity" in the Christmas greetings address. On other occasions, he has said, "hermeneutic of continuity" - eg note 6 of Sacramentum Caritatis (6) I am referring here to the need for a hermeneutic of continuity also with regard to the correct interpretation of the liturgical development which followed the Second Vatican Council: cf. Benedict XVI, Address to the Roman Curia (22 December 2005): AAS 98 (2006), 44-45.

Author:  deleted_user [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

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Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

I was responding to CC.

Author:  p.falk [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Has anyone read Thomas Pink's article in Public Discourse?
Very relevant to this topic.
Here's the link:

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/08/39362/

Some points that I think are incredibly hard to refute (from the article) are as follows:

Quote:
That is why in Catholic tradition, as in Aristotle, the state is not just a facilitator of protection and cooperation. The state is also a public teacher. Through its laws, we as private individuals come to understand what the common good involves and how it should be pursued. All states are confessors: confessors of the content of reason as it concerns the bonum commune. A properly functioning state can bear witness to the common good in a way that private individuals cannot.



....


Quote:
And the warnings of Pius IX and Leo XIII do look very prescient. For with that political secularization we find states also departing from natural law on an ever-widening field of issues, including abortion, euthanasia, and marriage. We find the state still confessing, as states must do, but falsely. The secularizing state bears increasingly false witness to the common good. It moves with depressing speed, in many countries, to repress and marginalize opposing Christian witness to the natural law in public life.



And finally

Quote:
No genuinely non-Christian state can be relied upon to recognize either of these things. States that do not recognize them will become confessors of false belief opposed to Christianity, and their great power will turn from supporting Christianity to opposing or even repressing it, especially in relation to its moral teaching. As the rapid movement of many western states from genuine support to increasing enmity toward Christianity illustrates, there is no stable middle way.


By "either of these things" Pink is referring to (1) state recognition of Natural Law and (2) the transformation of Public Reason brought about by 'raising of religion to a supernatural good'.... that is, the State's recognition that the Catholic (or more broadly Christian) religion is a supernatural good that now transcends the State.

Author:  deleted_user [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

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Author:  p.falk [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

Could you spell those distortions out?

This article is by Thomas Pink and he wouldn't say that Dignitatis Humanae has any magisterial distortions (compared to early magisterial proclamations).

He separates out the magisterium from the "official theology"; and that the official theology can be distorted in the case of Dignitatis Humanae.

Author:  deleted_user [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hermeneutic of Continuity

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