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 Post subject: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Does the pre-2018 CCC give as a source for its statements ordinary speeches/addresses/letters etc (vis-a-vis encyclicals, apostolic letters, exhortations, etc)? How common is this?

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:15 am 
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A word search for "speech" and "letter" did not show anything in the footnotes.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:29 am 
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Are you in a discussion with someone about levels of authority?

There are letters and speeches in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:43 am 
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Speeches are often referred to by a title, or referenced as "allocutions" etc.

Letters, likewise, have a title, or are part of a collection, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:27 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
1. Are you in a discussion with someone about levels of authority?

2. There are letters and speeches in there.


1. No.
2. Can you give an example, please?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:22 pm 
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Can you explain the reason for the question? Are you asking because you think that citing a papal speech or address somehow grants greater authority to the speech or address? Understand that the sources cited in the Catechism are not cited due to the authority of the document, they are cited because the authors/compilers of the Catechism thought that the quote in question did a good job of crystallizing or summarizing a particular point. They are not cited due to any 'authority' the sources may have, nor does the fact that they are cited grant them any 'extra' authority.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:12 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Can you explain the reason for the question? Are you asking because you think that citing a papal speech or address somehow grants greater authority to the speech or address?

No, I'm more closer thinking that a paragraph that cites an encyclical has greater authority than one that cites a speech.
I was under the impression that propriety demands that only the more authoritative documents may be cited.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:18 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Quote:
There are letters and speeches in there.

Can you give an example, please?

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:13 am 
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When you said "there are letters and speeches in there", I had thought that you had specific examples in mind.

Google didn't give me anything for "allocution" or "insegnamenti" either.

I checked whether this Google search (for specific words within a site) extends to the footnotes too. I searched with "GS" and found out that it does.

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South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:21 am 
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ETA The Speech/Address/Allocution genre is called "Discourse" in the CCC and is cited a few times. https://www.google.com/search?q=discour ... catechism/

Letters aren't cited, as far as I can tell. https://www.google.com/search?q=letter+ ... catechism/ The word appears, but not as a citation.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:06 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
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No, I'm closer thinking that a paragraph that cites an encyclical has greater authority than one that cites a speech.




The Catechism has no 'authority' at all, it cites authoritative teachings, but it does not have any authority of its own. The Catechism is not a product of the magisterium.

If only 'authoritative' documents are to be cited, then how to justify all the quotes from the saints and Fathers of the Church? Saints and Fathers have no authority. The Catechism even cites some theologians, such as Cardinal Newman, who are not even saints.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:51 am 
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Doom wrote:
Saints and Fathers have no authority.

That's a curious statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 am 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
\
No, I'm closer thinking that a paragraph that cites an encyclical has greater authority than one that cites a speech.

The Catechism has no 'authority' at all, it cites authoritative teachings, but it does not have any authority of its own. The Catechism is not a product of the magisterium.

i didn't deny that.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:18 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Saints and Fathers have no authority.

That's a curious statement.

We know what Doom meant. They bear witness, but don't have Magisterial authority, at least in the way the hierarchy does.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:19 am 
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But that's not so. They are part of the Ordinary Magisterium.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:28 am 
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I am sure there are some of St. Augustine's letters in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:59 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But that's not so. They are part of the Ordinary Magisterium.


Was this addressed to me? Can you explain.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:07 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Saints and Fathers have no authority.

That's a curious statement.


So the fact that Saint so and so said something means that I am required to believe it under pain of sin? Am I also to believe another saint who says the exact opposite?

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 Post subject: Re: Does CCC cite speeches?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Saints and Fathers have no authority.

That's a curious statement.


So the fact that Saint so and so said something means that I am required to believe it under pain of sin? Am I also to believe another saint who says the exact opposite?

There are some saints (e.g. St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus Liguori) who are indeed authoritative. I don't know about pain of sin, however. And a morally universal set of Fathers or of approved scholastic theologians is also authoritative. The former proposition is taught explicitly by the Council of Trent.

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