Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 46 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:58 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:16 pm
Posts: 936
Religion: Catholic
Great for science fiction, not so much in faith and reason.

_________________
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:32 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:16 pm
Posts: 936
Religion: Catholic
I find this to be a more sober approach to the idea of aliens...

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... lsVqTYLLsg

_________________
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:18 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Denise Dee wrote:
I see no reason why aliens couldn't receive communion

as long as they're not divorced and remarried.


To lurkers, etc.:
Not being divorced and remarried is not a sufficient condition to be admitted to Holy Communion.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:27 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81322
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Sabbath wrote:
Great for science fiction, not so much in faith and reason.

I doubt we're going to have much success convincing each other on this point.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:34 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1WpE5ntqbQ

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:03 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I can think of at least one science fiction book (Limbo System) that asked the same question. What is sufficient to qualify as "Man"? Does being a rational animal suffice?

I would not think so. "Man" is a form, not merely a set of properties (i.e., being rational, being an animal). The human form has certain potentialities. More, we have certain ultimate capacities that direct our secondary capacities. For instance, humans have the ultimate capacity for mobility, and for us, we therefore have the secondary capacity of walking via a bipedal structure. We have the ultimate capacity for thought, and so there are a great many secondary capacities related to the formation of our brains, etc. All that is intrinsic to the form "man." Put a little differently, we have those potentialities on account of the fact that we are human; we are not human because we have those potentialities. So pointing to a "rational animal" would not be the same as pointing to another "man."

Really, it seems to me that what you are asking is whether or not other humans exist on other planets. That concept is rather removed from the idea of intelligent lifeforms that may or may not be humanoid and asking about the salvation of those. But suppose we grant that there are other humans--human in exactly the same sense and form that you and I are human. That does raise the question of their lineage to Adam and the interpretation of that story. Are we going to then propose multiple incarnations for each family lineage? Or are we going to do away with the idea that Christ really is in the lineage of Adam in the first place? Or I suppose, for the sake of completing the set of logical possibilities, we could claim that non-Adamic men exist and are saved the same way Adamic men are, which would deny the fatherhood of Adam of all people. I'm not sure if the Church has taken a position on that particular one.*

It seems to me the best way to answer the question is to point to the absurd mathematical impossibilities of humans existing elsewhere in the universe; and then to say that if aliens really do exist, then they are mere animals and would benefit from communion no more than a dog does. Or you posit that their salvation is through other means entirely, as it is with angels, not because they have another Savior (Christ is the Savior of all) but because they participate in Christ's salvation by some means other than the way humans do. That would mean their final state would ultimately be lower than that of the glorified human, just as the final state of the righteous angel is ultimately lower than the glorified human.

--------------

*edit:

Did a brief google search and came across this from Humani Generis:

    The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter…..When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own (Humani Generis, 36-37).

And then, more importantly, this from Trent:

    1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.

    2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

    3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

    4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I, for one, can't see how these words can be reasonably read as not necessarily presuming monogenism.

Just my opinion, of course.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Last edited by theJack on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:06 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81322
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
http://newadvent.org/summa/4003.htm#article7

It would seem to me to follow that the Son could take on the nature of a rational alien animal and thereby redeem it and glorify it.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:18 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
The question is about two human natures, not two rational animals. ALL of creation is saved in Christ the man. To suggest the need for another incarnation of another type of animal seems to negate that fact.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:49 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:16 pm
Posts: 936
Religion: Catholic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkUrwND ... Gl&index=9

_________________
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:48 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:16 pm
Posts: 936
Religion: Catholic
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/8845

_________________
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:30 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 7695
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
Sabbath wrote:
I find this to be a more sober approach to the idea of aliens...

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... lsVqTYLLsg


Very interesting article, thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:41 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 7695
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
This poem is appropriate to the topic:

https://www.bartleby.com/236/265.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:54 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:45 am
Posts: 17
Location: Eastern-Europe
Religion: Eastern-Orthodox
Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:

Should have challenged such a question instead of indulging it.


A radio show host who insults his callers instead of answering their questions probably wouldn't have a job for long.

One can challenge a question without insulting the person who asks it. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:02 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 7695
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
Lucian Hodoboc wrote:
Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:

Should have challenged such a question instead of indulging it.


A radio show host who insults his callers instead of answering their questions probably wouldn't have a job for long.

One can challenge a question without insulting the person who asks it. :)


Yes, that is true, when spoken in the Lord's peace!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:16 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39971
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It would seem to me to follow that the Son could take on the nature of a rational alien animal and thereby redeem it and glorify it.

He could, but we have no way of knowing whether or not He did, as it's not contained in Revelation, which speaks of only one redemption for all of creation.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:22 pm 
Offline
Eminent
Eminent
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 16660
Location: West Virginia
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus 4th Degree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_cE8QiQfX0

NAR

_________________
For you love all things that are, and hate none of the things which you have made: for you did not appoint, or make anything hating it. Wisdom 11:25

=============================================================

Profile picture is the Mackinac Bridge in Michigan, taken from the Star Line Ferry on August 31, 2019.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:40 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 33052
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
theJack wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I can think of at least one science fiction book (Limbo System) that asked the same question. What is sufficient to qualify as "Man"? Does being a rational animal suffice?

I would not think so. "Man" is a form, not merely a set of properties (i.e., being rational, being an animal). The human form has certain potentialities. More, we have certain ultimate capacities that direct our secondary capacities. For instance, humans have the ultimate capacity for mobility, and for us, we therefore have the secondary capacity of walking via a bipedal structure. We have the ultimate capacity for thought, and so there are a great many secondary capacities related to the formation of our brains, etc. All that is intrinsic to the form "man." Put a little differently, we have those potentialities on account of the fact that we are human; we are not human because we have those potentialities. So pointing to a "rational animal" would not be the same as pointing to another "man."

Since we're doing necromancy here....

I disagree. Being a rational animal does suffice and a rational alien would indeed be one of us. (It seems to me we have strong theological reasons to deny the existence of any rational aliens. But that's not relevant to this philosophical point.) You're correct--and make a crucially important point--in saying that it's not the having of the potentialities that makes us humans, but rather the being human that explains the potentialities we have. A related way to say this is that rational animal is not a reductive definition of man. But it's still a definition: an essential definition. If there were a rational alien life form that moves and senses (i.e. is an animal), then it would fall under the same definition that we do. Hence, it would have the same essence. It might look and act quite different from us, but it would still be one of us. I think it's useful here to think of the glorified body: when we're raised from the dead, we'll still be human beings--viz still rational animals. But we'll have powers that nobody would ever have predicted a human being would have. For example--here's a stunner--we won't need to eat. This is highly counterintuitive: it violates our thought that living beings take in nutrition. Even more stunning, we'll have the quality of agility. (Roughly put, we'll be where we want to be, right away.) Those amazing creatures--raised human beings--are still us, despite the differences. IOW the form human is susceptible of multifarious instantiation. It's true that a rational alien wouldn't be the same biological species as us. But I don't think biological species can be viewed as important.

This is quick and not well put.

_________________
Image
The Medal of St. Benedict

Suscipe me secundum eloquium tuum, et vivam: et non confundas me ab exspectatione mea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:47 pm 
Offline
Eminent
Eminent
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 16660
Location: West Virginia
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus 4th Degree
gherkin wrote:
I disagree. Being a rational animal does suffice and a rational alien would indeed be one of us.


Heh, you made me think of this exchange between Kirk and Spock from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (which I recently watched for the umpteenth time):

Quote:
Kirk:
Spock, you want to know something?, Everybody's Human.

Captain Spock:
I find that remark... insulting.

_________________
For you love all things that are, and hate none of the things which you have made: for you did not appoint, or make anything hating it. Wisdom 11:25

=============================================================

Profile picture is the Mackinac Bridge in Michigan, taken from the Star Line Ferry on August 31, 2019.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:42 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6143
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
Sabbath wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Christ became man to reconcile humanity to God, He died for humans, it's a moot point.

all creation, all things, etc.



True, but He did not become one w/the animals.
And here’s the problem. You seem to define ‘aliens’ (if they exists) as ‘animals’ in the colloquial sense (irrational animals). But if there are rational aliens out there, we have another scenario.

It depends entirely on how you define ‘human.’ As Edward Feser explains in this blogpost on modern biology and original sin (and not on aliens),

    We can begin by asking what a human being is. The traditional A-T [Aristotelian-Thomistic] answer is, of course, that a human being is a rational animal. We are animals insofar as we have the capacities typical of animality in general -- nutrition, growth, reproduction, sensation, appetite, and locomotion. These are all purely material capacities, all requiring bodily organs for their exercise. We are rational insofar as we possess intellect and will. These are immaterial capacities, and do not directly depend on any bodily organ, although they do depend on such organs indirectly. I have explained the how and why in several places -- most fully in chapter 4 of Aquinas -- and have addressed some of the relevant issues in earlier blog posts, such as this one. I will summarize only the most relevant points here.

Read the entire post, as it is quite interesting. Also read his followups; here and here.

As we see, a rational animal is ‘human.’ A corporeal rational alien would also be defined as a human in this sense, so the question is not ridiculous. ‘Human,’ then, is a metaphysical catergory, and not an archeological or biologically historical one. We can’t with necessity, then, reduce it to those belonging to the historical verifiable category of ‘homo sapiens’ or ‘homo sapiens sapiens.’ And as far as I know, the Roman Catholic Church has condemned the idea that we can know that God didn’t create other rational aliens (or humans) on other planets.

If rational aliens exist, Christ died for them too, and they may be saved.

And even if Christ didn’t become on with the (irrational) animals as he did with us, he did become part of creation by becoming man. And all of creation will be renewed in him.

_________________
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

“Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt.” — Paul Tillich

http://katolikken.wordpress.com/
English texts: http://katolikken.wordpress.com/tag/english-texts-2/

http://www.facebook.com/kjetilkringlebotten

http://twitter.com/katolikken

http://thecatholic.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alien Questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:50 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:16 pm
Posts: 936
Religion: Catholic
What if said aliens had no original sin?

_________________
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen!"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 46 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: