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 Post subject: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:26 am 
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I am a Board Certified Chaplain (BCC) through the Association of Professional Chaplains' (APC) certifying arm, the Board of Chaplaincy Certification, Inc (BCCI). I was also a member of the APC for a few years, but I rescinded my membership late last year and now am certified only. I am certified only because my employer, a Catholic hospital, requires it for promotion. Without that requirement, I would drop the certification also.

I am struggling with whether or not I should drop my BCC status regardless. I am deeply worried that my annual fees, to say nothing of my claiming the certification in the first place, constitute at least a material if not even a formal cooperation with evil.

My reasoning is straightforward: the APC and its affiliates actively and formally promote and profit from the promotion and defense of practices that stand in direct contradiction to Catholic faith and morals in general and several ERDs in particular. Both my name and also my money are being used by the organization to further those goals, create forums in which they can be furthered, etc.

How then, in good conscience, can I continue to financially and nominally support them? It seems to me it would be like saying I opposed abortion and then donating time, money, and my name to Planned Parenthood.

If I withdraw, I will be immediately demoted and forego a promotion I am scheduled for next June. Combined, this could result in as much as a 5-10% pay reduction, to say nothing of the long term effects of annual raises. There is also the possibility that such a move might put me at odds with management so as to jeopardize my job (even though, strictly, neither membership in nor certification by the APC/BCCI is necessary for employment -- only advancement).

I would appreciate thoughts and moral analysis as to how I might best and most wisely proceed.

Thank you

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:39 am 
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It is remote material cooperation, so I don't think you're 100% obliged to drop the membership.

If you'd rather drop it, then my next question would be how Catholic is this Catholic hospital? Is upper management aware there's a problem? If not, would they care? If not, are they answerable to the local bishop? If so, would he care? If there is a positive answer anywhere along that chain, then are you willing to live with the consequences of chasing up the chain of command for an answer?

:pray: for your discernment.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:53 am 
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Have you thought about writing to the bishop about this? Or, as a step before going over the hospital's head (so to speak), is there an ethics board or whatnot? I mean, presumably at a nominally Catholic hospital, there will be some attempt to at least want to appear to take Catholic teaching into account.

Your comparison to supporting Planned Parenthood seems incorrect for two reasons. First, that support for Planned Parenthood would probably be strictly voluntary, where in your case your membership is to some extent compulsory. Second, and more important, I take it that the BCC is not itself actually killing people. Your situation seems more like paying membership dues to a labor union so you can work in field X, where that union advocates for immoral policies. Except that in your case, you could keep working in field X if you didn't pay the dues--you'd just stay at a low level of employment and maybe take a pay cut.

I don't think I have a useful ethical analysis on this, but my approach practically speaking would be to (a) start looking for a different place of employment, (b) immediately give up any thought of the promotion you mention, and (c) probably let my membership lapse naturally rather than immediately resigning.

The rationale for the above. (a) In all likelihood yours is only going to get worse as the years pass, until you find that you certainly can't keep working there. It's not going to get easier to move as you get older and more settled. (b) Why make it financially and psychologically, as well as practically, more difficult to switch jobs? Once you get promoted, you might find yourself viewed as overqualified for many available jobs, and thus ruled out by HR or whatever. But you might also find yourself loathe to take lower-level jobs simply because you've started getting used to the higher level. (c) This one is harder and I suppose turns on a better moral analysis that I can give. But my sense is that you've already paid for the certification, so the financial damage is done. And there's no especially strong need to make the purely symbolic move of resigning at unnecessary damage to your standing at your work. This is pretty irrelevant if you have to re-enroll every January 1 or something. In that case, I don't know what I'd do.

At a certain point, we're all going to have to start making decisions like these.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:53 am 
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I just want to say, first, that I disagree with everything Father said, and second, in the places where it appears we agree, I started typing my answer long before he posted his!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:56 am 
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Agreeing with gherkin is always formal proximate cooperation with evil.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:32 am 
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Thank you both for your thoughts. To answer the questions or comment on what you've said:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It is remote material cooperation, so I don't think you're 100% obliged to drop the membership.

That's a good start.

Quote:
If you'd rather drop it, then my next question would be how Catholic is this Catholic hospital? Is upper management aware there's a problem? If not, would they care? If not, are they answerable to the local bishop? If so, would he care? If there is a positive answer anywhere along that chain, then are you willing to live with the consequences of chasing up the chain of command for an answer?

As I am at least inclined to drop it as a matter of conscience,
a) They think of themselves as very Catholic and talk about Catholic values all the time. The local Catholic community, including the priest on staff here, might be inclined to disagree.
b) Upper management is not aware. I have been having conversations through the chain, so to speak, for a while now, and those conversations are continuing. Suffice it to say, when all the dust settles, they will be aware that there is a problem.
c) I genuinely do not know if they would care. They may or they may not. The president does consider himself a faithful Catholic, so if presented properly, he might. He also might think this is such a small issue in the broader issues the hospital faces that it might not matter to him at all.
d) Yes, they are answerable to a very conservative local bishop.
e) He would care very much. Of course, that would depend on my moral concerns being grounded in a correct moral analysis.
f) I don't know. It is easy to say that I am. I also have a wife and children. If I were 100% certain that I had a moral obligation, I would definitely live with the consequences. But there are degrees of consequences and degrees of moral difficulty, so I really don't know.

Quote:
:pray: for your discernment.

Thank you.

--------------------------

gherkin wrote:
Have you thought about writing to the bishop about this? Or, as a step before going over the hospital's head (so to speak), is there an ethics board or whatnot? I mean, presumably at a nominally Catholic hospital, there will be some attempt to at least want to appear to take Catholic teaching into account.

As I said to padre above, I am working through channels. I don't feel it's appropriate (at this juncture) to contact the bishop directly. The ethics board is a waste of time here, sadly.

Quote:
Your comparison to supporting Planned Parenthood seems incorrect for two reasons. First, that support for Planned Parenthood would probably be strictly voluntary, where in your case your membership is to some extent compulsory. Second, and more important, I take it that the BCC is not itself actually killing people. Your situation seems more like paying membership dues to a labor union so you can work in field X, where that union advocates for immoral policies. Except that in your case, you could keep working in field X if you didn't pay the dues--you'd just stay at a low level of employment and maybe take a pay cut.

That is a helpful counterexample, thank you. The only push-back I might give on the PP comparison is that while the APC does not directly contribute to the deaths of innocents, they certainly openly advocate for and publish/create forums for the defense of practices that directly result in illicit deaths, including abortion and physician assisted suicide. In my own (possibly flawed) assessment, the APC is clearly formally cooperating with those evils. The question for me is whether or not what I perceive to be a material cooperation meets those conditions as to be either moral or immoral. But again, thank you for the labor union example. I will raise it with a moral theologian here I have been directed to and get his thoughts on those matters.

Quote:
I don't think I have a useful ethical analysis on this, but my approach practically speaking would be to (a) start looking for a different place of employment, (b) immediately give up any thought of the promotion you mention, and (c) probably let my membership lapse naturally rather than immediately resigning.

The rationale for the above. (a) In all likelihood yours is only going to get worse as the years pass, until you find that you certainly can't keep working there. It's not going to get easier to move as you get older and more settled.

That is, unfortunately, very high on my responses. I expect it will take me one year of preparation, and then I will be able to move rather freely almost wherever I want, and it is highly likely it will come to that.

Quote:
(b) Why make it financially and psychologically, as well as practically, more difficult to switch jobs? Once you get promoted, you might find yourself viewed as overqualified for many available jobs, and thus ruled out by HR or whatever. But you might also find yourself loathe to take lower-level jobs simply because you've started getting used to the higher level.

Agreed on all counts. This is part of my concern. For what it is worth, I'm fairly young at 37, but that means I'm also not a twenty-something kid. I'm very much at a stage in my career where I have to make some big and serious moves such that if I don't do something soon, then all the real long term opportunities are going to pass on. I'm very uncomfortable with that, and a little angry, because part of the reason I am here is because I was pitched a career path that turned out not to exist.

Quote:
(c) This one is harder and I suppose turns on a better moral analysis that I can give. But my sense is that you've already paid for the certification, so the financial damage is done. And there's no especially strong need to make the purely symbolic move of resigning at unnecessary damage to your standing at your work. This is pretty irrelevant if you have to re-enroll every January 1 or something. In that case, I don't know what I'd do.

It renews every January, so it's a decision I have to make every year. This year it is particularly difficult, because the promotion to Chaplain III requires BCC certification, and the CIII role comes with certain long term responsibilities, such that I feel it would be highly dishonest of me to take the job knowing that there is a strong likelihood that I won't be able to maintain that certification and so keep the job for long.

Quote:
At a certain point, we're all going to have to start making decisions like these.

And sadly, I'm at one of those points where I'm about to have to make one. I appreciate these and any other thoughts that you have. I am very actively seeking counsel in the best way to move forward both from people I respect inside my organization, from a few moral theologians (and even a canon lawyer) I've been directed to, and, of course, my own family and heart. I'm relying very heavily on James 1:5-8!

Thanks again. I'm okay formally cooperating with the evil of agreeing with you and even pulling Padre into it if it means I don't end up cooperating with a more serious evil back here in my job. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:55 am 
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FWIW, I think the comparison to a labor union is apt. I'm assuming you've already looked into whether there is an alternative organization offering certification that your employer would accept?

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:59 am 
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I have, and for practical purposes, there are not. Strictly, they accept certification from three agencies: the National Association of Catholic Chaplains, Neshama: the Association of Jewish Chaplains, and the Association of Professional Chaplains. I can't join the first two, which leaves the third as the only alternative.

I think the labor union analogy is an apt one. I need to explore it in detail to be comfortable not just giving myself an excuse to continue to give money to an organization that is formally cooperating with evil just so that I can make an extra few bucks an hour (a minor under (over?) statement, but you get my point).

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:13 pm 
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I'd soften some of my earlier thoughts in light of Father's point that it's merely remote material cooperation. Specifically, I'd probably be willing to re-up for this January in order to keep my current level of employment.

Also, it doesn't sound to me like you're morally obliged to pass on the promotion. And I'm not sure how heavily to weigh the long term responsibilities thing, partly because I don't know anything about them, but also partly because in the case of just about any job you're more or less employed at the mercy of the employer (that is, they're not making any long term commitment to you) and hence in my view the employer is accepted at your mercy (that is, you're not making any long term commitment to them). Obviously, there are cases where contracts are signed and lengths of time are stipulated and so forth. Even in that case, typically the obligation is on the part of the employer, not the employee. I think when I started my current job I was on two year contracts--but that didn't bind me at all. Anyway, that's all to say that in thinking about it a bit more, I don't think I see a moral obligation to forego promotion. There may still be strong prudential reasons to pass on it. But that's a different matter. And the extra income from the promotion might well offset some of those prudential considerations. If, for example, instead of getting used to living on a higher salary, you simply take all of the extra money and deposit it in an account earmarked to help you make the move to a better job when the time comes, then the kind of practical worries I raised wouldn't really arise.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Is the remote/proximate distinction related to or differing words for the mediate/immediate material distinction?

edit: because I'm reading from Furton et al's Catholic Health Care Ethics, 2nd ed, and the latter distinction is the one they apply to the issue of material cooperation.

edit2:

Reviewing this link, and it seems they are not the same, given these:

    Since the mediate cooperator does not intend but foresees an evil effect of his action, the principle of double effect applies. This is a very important point because foreseeing this evil effect is an activity of conscience in and of itself, and therefore requires appealing to the principle of double effect as well as to the principle of cooperation. Therefore, we must make two further distinctions. First, we distinguish between mediate material cooperation which is proximate (if it is closely involved in the commission of the morally wrong action) and remote (when it is further removed from the action itself). This distinction corresponds to the fourth criterion of the principle of double effect: the good consequence must not be the effect of the evil consequence. In other words, the end does not justify the means. Here, remember, one is considering the circumstances of the action.

    Second, we distinguish between mediate material cooperation which is necessary (supplying what is essential to the commission of the morally wrong action) and non-necessary (supplying what is non-essential). This distinction corresponds to the fifth criterion of the principle of double effect: the good consequence must be morally proportionate to the evil consequence. Here, remember, one is considering the very consequences themselves in relation to each other.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:59 pm 
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A closely related question on the nature of money: what principles guide the classification of giving of money with respect to its cooperation with evil?

To clarify, almost all the examples I have read are of rather specific items with specific ends. So the drug or liquor store owner is selling items that have highly specific ends--ends that can be abused, but specific ends, nonetheless. The medical instruments created by a manufacturer all have specific ends, even of those ends can be used in harmful, evil ways. But I'm ultimately asking about the moral classification of giving money under a highly specific set of circumstances, so part of that question is, what is money? What is it's end? It seems to me that money actually doesn't have a specified end. It merely represents buying power or increased capacity to accomplish a purposed end, whatever end that may be.

If I sell drugs to a nursing home, I know those drugs can be used to sedate or control patients illicitly. But that's an abuse of the thing I'm selling. But if I give money to an organization, what am I doing more generally? I am supporting their ability to function or carry out their agenda. Money can't be abused in exactly the same way that, say, drugs can, because money doesn't seem to have the same clearly defined end. Does this not, then, highlight the agenda being supported--i.e., the agenda of the recipient, be it a person or an organization--in the question of the moral licitness of financially supporting some entity? It's not solely determinative, I know. After all, in my case, the giving is in some sense compulsory, and that has to factor into the moral question. But I don't want to ignore the one part by focusing on the other. So just keeping this about the nature of money, it seems that the analysis has to be a little different when thinking about remoteness or necessity or whatever. Strictly, the forceps and physician may be necessary to perform the abortion; the clean linens may not be necessary but only enabling. Strictly, you don't need a single penny to perform an abortion. But in reality, due to the general end of money, in a real way, money is necessary to perform the abortion, because the forceps need to be purchased and the physician paid. Things like that. In other words, it doesn't seem to me that you can analyze money in exactly the same way in terms of material sub-classifications as you can specific items with specific ends.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:14 pm 
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FWIW, I think your situation is in category (4) of the EWTN article you linked to.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:51 pm 
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It is worth quite a bit. Just for my own conscience's sake, can you offer your thoughts (which I won't at all argue with -- I'm truly interested in your thoughts) as to why my situation constitutes "non-necessary and very remote" cooperation?

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Because your dropping your membership will have no effect whatsoever on the policies on the association.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:31 pm 
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So by way of update, I talked about my situation in some detail with a Dr Kevin Schemenauer who is a Professor of Moral Theology at Saint Meinrad Seminary and School of Theology. He concurred with what you all are saying, including especially the labor union comparison. He thought that was a particularly good example given the fact that labor unions ought to be exactly the kind of organization that is not only permissible to support but even good to support. Unfortunately with the modern labor union that isn't so obvious. For him, part of the question relating to proximity is going to rest on the nature of the organization begin supported. If it is basically good or neutral with admittedly evil persons and practices in it, then the cooperation is definitely remote. But if the organization becomes such that its primary end really is evil, then the proximity question doesn't matter any longer. So he doesn't know enough about the APC itself to be able to say whether or not they are primarily evil, although based on my description he doubts it. Yet he encouraged me to keep an eye on that because if that were to become a fair assessment, then the cooperation just ceases to be justifiable. The evils are already fairly grave, but between the remoteness of my cooperation, my own intentions, and the goods attained (not only advancement in my work but also the very dignity of the work), he doesn't see an immediate problem. And, of course, as Obi noted, my support or lack of support won't effect the organization one bit, relatively speaking, so my direct contribution is relatively minor as well.

He did offer some thoughts I should consider about other ways in which I'm cooperating with the APC. For example, as of this summer I will have presented a couple of times, and I've mentored several people through the certification process. Moreover, I am frankly forced by the realities of the industry to point people who want to become professional chaplains both the APC for certification and for the educational/formational body, the ACPE (association of clinical pastoral education). His bigger concern there was scandal but thought that could be adequately mediated with relevant disclaimers and offers of or direction towards, as appropriate, better sources of formation (in addition to--not in replacement of--the ACPE, which is also required).

My own denominational structure does not like the APC but accepts industry realities, so there's no issue of authority there.

So I have enough, it sounds like, to maintain my certification without feeling like I'm selling myself out. I just have to continue to look at the APC and monitor to see if they end up crossing whatever nebulous line exists into becoming really and primarily directed towards evil ends.

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 Post subject: Re: ERD question / formal and material cooperation with evil
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:04 pm 
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I'm happy someone more trained than I in these things gave you counsel. And I'm happy that I was more or less right.

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