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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
. I believe this, and see no further need of going any deeper...



Imagine for a moment that you are married, and you tell your wife 'I know you as well as I can stand it and I see no need to get to know you better'. How well do you think that would go over? Now, imagine you're saying that to God.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
. I believe this, and see no further need of going any deeper...



Imagine for a moment that you are married, and you tell your wife 'I know you as well as I can stand it and I see no need to get to know you better'. How well do you think that would go over? Now, imagine you're saying that to God.


I can't even begin to imagine how you would see it this way?! Just because I am not interested any longer in going any deeper in this particular doctrine, and I think I already explained how long I've labored over it, you would come to the conclusion I have no interest in knowing God any better???

Furthermore, I have seen more than a few ex-Christians who still debate this rigorously, yet have no interest in knowing God at all, in fact no longer believe He even exists. Mere intellectual masturbation!

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:02 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?


When it comes to issues like this how can you not be angry, sad, troubled...when the fate of those you love are at stake? When some suggest that God has damned them long before they were born, for His own good pleasure!

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Just to clarify my point (I don't want to speak for anyone else):

There certainly are times when it's just not going to be beneficial for a person to study a doctrine or field of doctrine, and there are certainly people who just don't have an aptitude or liking for it. (Please note that I am not challenging anyone's aptitude--I'm making a general statement.) There is nothing wrong with that. My objection is to the idea that there's something wrong with people who do want to discuss theological topics.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Some of you seem to discuss them in a vacuum, w/little to no concern for those fall on the left side of things, just so long as you are on the right side. (Pleas note that I am not singling anyone out here in particular.)

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:16 pm 
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I'm not sure what you mean by left/right here.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by left/right here.


Right/wrong, saved/lost

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Gotcha. I thought it was something along those lines, but I wasn't sure.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:15 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
theJack wrote:
Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?


When it comes to issues like this how can you not be angry, sad, troubled...when the fate of those you love are at stake? When some suggest that God has damned them long before they were born, for His own good pleasure!

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:59 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
theJack wrote:
Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?


When it comes to issues like this how can you not be angry, sad, troubled...when the fate of those you love are at stake? When some suggest that God has damned them long before they were born, for His own good pleasure!

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation.


But that's kind of a catch 22, right? Everyone gets sufficient grace, but not everyone gets persevering grace, or saving grace, or whatever special grace you call that gets one into Heaven.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:16 am 
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When I say 'sufficient grace', I mean grace that suffices for salvation. It is 'saving' or 'enough to get to heaven'.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:19 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
When I say 'sufficient grace', I mean grace that suffices for salvation. It is 'saving' or 'enough to get to heaven'.


Then how does "double pre-destination lite" fit in to the pic?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:53 am 
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What I know on grae I know from PED:

First, what is grace?

In Scripture it can mean a benevolence or condescension of a higher personage onto a lower (God to man being the supreme example). It can mean a gift that is unmerited, gratuitious. It can also mean a "pleasing charm", and lastly it can mean "the thanks for favours received

In theology what matters is the second scriptural use, that of an unmerited gift. Broadly this can include natural favours and such, like creation. In the more proper sense it refers to unmerited supernatural gifts.

This is the sense we will take it. Grace is a supernatural and unmerited gift from God.

The first division is simple. There us Uncreated Grace and created grace. Uncreated grace is God Himself... this grace is given in the communication of God Himself to man. In the Incarnation, in His indwelling in our souls, in the Eucharist and most supremely in the Beatific Vision. Created graces are supernatural gifts or operations that are not God, but from God.

These created graces undergo a second division in most theological schools.

The first is call the grace of God or of the Creator. These are the graces bestowed upon angels and Adam and Eve before the fall, unconnected with Redemption (though also Adam and Eve, and the angels, were unworthy of these gifts even without sin)

The second set are the graces of Christ or the Redeemer. These are the graces that God bestowed on man after the fall, either in view of Christ's future redemption (as with the restoration of Adam and Eve to grace) or as a prior event renewed in the Mass (as with us now)

The Scotists (Franciscans mostly) do not accept this distinction, because they believe that Christ would have become Incarnate without the Fall and that all graces then are in virtue of Christ as the Head of Creation...

Graces are also divided as being external or internal. An external grace is all that Pelagius admitted. It is the things external to us that affect us morally, i.e by example. Christ's teaching, Revelation, sermons, the Liturgy. Internal gracs are those that affect the soul directly and physically, such as sanctifying grace, the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity, et al.

These internal graces are further divided

Gratia gratis data- This essentially means "a really freely given grace". These graces have their end in sanctifying others not the recipient. Charismata (gift of tongues, pophecy) the powers of the priest to consecrate, and the power of jurisdiction (Confession, etc). Having these graces, of themselves, have nothing to do with one's own holiness. A priest still has the grace of confesting the Eucharist when he is in mortal sin for example. Though using them rightly can involve gratia gratum faciens

Gratia gratum faciens- This means "a working grace" or "grace making one graced" essentially. These are for the recipient's sanctification

Gratia gratum faciens is divided into habitual or sanctifying grace, and actual grace. Habitual grace or sanctifying grace is a constant quality of the soul that makes a man just and a friend of God. Actual grace is an intervention by God to direct the soul to attaining or preserving sanctifying grace

Actual grace has a three-fold division

1. Illuminating grace enlightens the intellect. Inspirational grace strengthens the will

2. Prevenient grace (aka antecedent grace) is that which preceeds the act of the will. It is dogma that God makes the first move with prevenient grace...the very act of faith, sorrow for sins, the very desire to be baptised is all granted by God. Grace then is not just a freely offered thing to be accepted or reject, with man being the first to move in the relationship. But God spurs him to accept grace and cooperate with it. Subsequent grace is that which is present whilst doing the act and supports and assists the will

3. Now do we arrive on the much disputed sufficent and efficacious distinction. Quickly defined without preference to one School, sufficient grace grants the power, the potency to act. Just as one can state that an infant is a rational creature, because reason exists in him in potency, though not in act. Efficacious grace de facto secures that the action to be performed (a salutary action, eg. Confession) is actually performed. Whenever we actually perform a salvic act then, the grace is efficacious because it is not merely a potency anymore but an actual act that is truly effect.

St. Thomas teaches that the grace of repentance is always sufficient for perfect contrition, so that when a man has imperfect contrition, the grace was sufficient for perfect, efficacious for imperfect. This would seem to imply that sufficient and efficacious are not really distinct, if one and the same grace is called both merely sufficient (for perfect contrition) and efficacious (for imperfect).

I would answer that efficacious grace is offered in sufficient grace. Such grace is truly sufficient, one can will to do the act that it is given for. In doing so, they act under efficacious grace, which is only denied when one resists sufficient grace. So the grace sufficient for perfect contrition was resisted as to its perfection, but cooperated with in an imperfect way.

Efficacious grace then is not distinct from sufficient grace the way my desk is from my bed, but act is from potency. I.e. efficacious grace actualizes sufficient grace, it is like its "form."

So when one acts under grace, we do not say he is acting with merely sufficient grace, since such grace was actualized by efficacious grace and hence is no longer merely sufficient. It may even be said to be efficacious, the same way my desk is said to be varnished even though the act of varnishing was distinct from the desk itself.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Good gravy! :stars:

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Good gravy! :stars:


I understand the head-spinning reaction. I believe I know enough and like to learn more, but I do not have the ability to articulate myself like those who have degrees in various subjects that enable them to discuss certain theological details. I do know about changing diapers, and the difficulties that arise when raising eight children. :)

St. John Paul II reminds us to "Be Not Afraid!". He was so devoted to Our Blessed Mother, and the special Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

In our spiritual journey we sometimes get caught up in being "puzzled" and feeling alone. The Lord
doesn't desire that we feel that way. Keep asking and you will receive what you need to be at peace.
Be persistent.

Many times I have to say "Jesus I trust in You". I say it in faith, but do not feel good. At this point in my life I know I don't need to count on feelings.

Maybe what I said doesn't help....I hope it does.

Peace!

Dorothy


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:43 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
theJack wrote:
Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?


When it comes to issues like this how can you not be angry, sad, troubled...when the fate of those you love are at stake? When some suggest that God has damned them long before they were born, for His own good pleasure!

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation.

According to that theology, if everyone doesn't get to heaven, then sufficient grace is not sufficient to get to heaven. Something else is also required. God gives some people that something else but doesn't give it to everyone, through no fault of their own. God created them that way, lacking in something. That's not fair, that's not justice. There's got to be some better theology than that.


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
theJack wrote:
Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?


When it comes to issues like this how can you not be angry, sad, troubled...when the fate of those you love are at stake? When some suggest that God has damned them long before they were born, for His own good pleasure!

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation.

According to that theology, if everyone doesn't get to heaven, then sufficient grace is not sufficient to get to heaven. Something else is also required. God gives some people that something else but doesn't give it to everyone, through no fault of their own. God created them that way, lacking in something. That's not fair, that's not justice. There's got to be some better theology than that.

The underlined portion is the error. It is exactly our fault when we refuse to cooperate with God's grace. You are making the mistake of assuming that God somehow overrides our will or makes our will what it is--either to choose him or reject him--and that against our will, as if God decides on our behalf what we will choose. But as has already been said, God brings about free choices, such that the effect he brings about--our free choices--are just what they are: free choices. All you are doing is denying that God can cause a free choice to come into existence, which means that you either deny that free choice exists or else you believe that our choices are uncaused, that they literally come from nothing. And I would argue that something coming from nothing is the very nature of absurd.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:59 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
theJack wrote:
Sabbath, do you mind if I ask--and it's just out of curiosity, I'm certainly not looking for a fight--what's behind the anger in at least some of your posts? Granted that I could be misreading you and there's not a hint of anger, of course. But granting that it's there, and it seems very much to be there for me, I was just wondering what it's about. Do you mind sharing?


When it comes to issues like this how can you not be angry, sad, troubled...when the fate of those you love are at stake? When some suggest that God has damned them long before they were born, for His own good pleasure!

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation.

According to that theology, if everyone doesn't get to heaven, then sufficient grace is not sufficient to get to heaven. Something else is also required. God gives some people that something else but doesn't give it to everyone, through no fault of their own. God created them that way, lacking in something. That's not fair, that's not justice. There's got to be some better theology than that.

The underlined portion is the error. It is exactly our fault when we refuse to cooperate with God's grace.

You're not getting it, TheJack. It's not our fault if we are created with the fault of refusing to cooperate with God's grace. We didn't choose to be created in that insufficient way, with that fault.


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