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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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You are the one denigrating Eastern tradition. As Doom and I pointed out your initial contrast between East and West was very wrong. It is true that the areas of theology characteristic of each tends different. East toward metaphysical (Trinitarian, Christological) West toward ethical (soteriological)

The "mystification" of Eastern thought is a Western fetish, one not fair to East or West

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Hold on a bit, you and Obi have strongly suggested that the East is semi-Pelagian, which by your own admission is heresy...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Semipelagianism is a heresy. Whether Eastern theology must be understood in the erroneous sense is beyond my pay grade.


Well, you and "Performance Enhancing Doctrine" have already suggested that they are...

I didn't say that, didn't suggest that, and didn't intend to.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Easterners do tend to semipelagianism. So do too many Western Catholics.


Is this not suggesting?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
But the East has not really incorporated the insights of the West. By and large Eastern Orthodox are semipelagian.



And here as well...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
iN which case, we believe in double predestination!


We?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:43 pm 
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So, would this mean that Tim and Pat here are semi-Pelagians, as well as lazy minded?

https://www.catholic.com/video/why-woul ... go-to-hell

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Easterners do tend to semipelagianism. So do too many Western Catholics.


Is this not suggesting?

No. It is saying that some (perhaps many) Eastern theologians say things that sound semipelagian to me. That's a huge distance from making a blanket claim that the Eastern is semipelagian.

And yes, lots of popular Catholic theology is unwittingly semipelagian.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
iN which case, we believe in double predestination!


We?

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:16 pm 
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So then, in Catholic theology there really is no free will for humanity, however you want to frame it in light of this it is all fatalistically predetermined, and life is rather meaningless.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:25 pm 
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No. I wish you would read things carefully and take time to understand instead of flying off the handle.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:35 pm 
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http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

See Canons IV - VI.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:36 pm 
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I'm not flying off the handle, but it is utterly impossible to reconcile double predestination w/any semblance of free will or choice, it make it all an illusion.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:45 pm 
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The problem is that you are asking complex questions and insisting on simple answers. And when you don't get a simple answer, you try to cram what you were given into the framework of a simple answer.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Yea, ok.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:08 pm 
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If you go to Hell, it will be because you freely made the choices that took you there, not because God made you do it. So if you're screwed, it's your fault. So quit fussing and keep making the choices that go to Heaven, and let God take care of the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:15 pm 
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It seems the more you learn of the Catholic faith the more you are led to the very place the Church condemns you for, namely despair!

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:25 pm 
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You aren't reading a word I'm saying--or rather, you're convinced you already know what I'm saying and read that into what I actually said.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:40 pm 
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I've suddenly lost the desire to go out w/my son for Christmas Eve tomorrow, what's the point of celebrating at all.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:52 pm 
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See?

I will be blunt: God is giving you sufficient grace to be saved (that's Catholic doctrine, BTW), and you're busy throwing yourself a pity party.

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