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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:05 pm 
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It may also be worth pointing out that many modern people who think they hold the Jesuit position actually go well beyond it.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:55 pm 
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Let me pose a question.

Let's say that God makes an equivalent offer of grace to everyone, and that the only difference between the Elect and the reprobate is in their response to that offer, so that God merely ratifies the decision each person makes. The only difference between St. Francis and Judas is that St. Francis made better use of his offer. Garrigou-Lagrange says that's semipelagianism, but let's say it isn't, or that it's ok if it is.

My question is this: If the above is the case, what's the point of praying for the conversion of a sinner? Are we asking God to do something for the sinner in question that He would otherwise not have done? If so, aren't we asking God to make a different, better, more effective offer of grace?

One could claim that God plans to make all the offers come out equivalent after taking all prayers into account, but that's awfully contrived.

I've never seen this addressed, let alone answered.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Not only have I never seen such a proposition proposed, but I find it to be an indecent proposal! :mrgreen:

Before I even delve into this, let's get this out of the way first, has the Church made an official decree that such a notion is semipelagianism, or just this theologian?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Isn't the point of any prayer to acknowledge our dependence on God, not necessarily that He will act one way or another?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:34 pm 
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I think we also need to define what Pelagianism is, weather partial or full on. Now my understanding is that it is the idea that man can do things of merit apart from God's grace, is there more to it than meets the eye?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:04 pm 
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For the sake of the argument, I'm conceding that it's not semipelagian. How would you answer my question?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:07 pm 
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Well, give me some time here, it's something you yourself have never seen before!

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:11 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Isn't the point of any prayer to acknowledge our dependence on God, not necessarily that He will act one way or another?


For starters, I'll start here w/at least sort of an answer...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Well, give me some time here, it's something you yourself have never seen before!

Oh, I've posed the question before. I've just never seen an attempt to answer it.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:26 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Isn't the point of any prayer to acknowledge our dependence on God, not necessarily that He will act one way or another?

No. We are making actual requests of God (e.g., "forgive me my sins"). Any prayer is an acknowledgment that we depend on God, but I don't think you want to argue that prayer makes no difference to anything except our feelings.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Well, give me some time here, it's something you yourself have never seen before!

Oh, I've posed the question before. I've just never seen an attempt to answer it.

I'm not saying that he always answers every question clearly and satisfactorily, far from it - but I sincerely believe that you have not posed this before, at least in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:34 pm 
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I haven't posed it in this thread. I thought he meant I'd never thought about it before myself.

And in all my reading on the topic, I have never read anyone even discuss the question, much less attempt an answer.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:19 pm 
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Perhaps this question is best left a mystery...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:00 am 
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If the question is impossible to answer, I think it's because it rests on a wrong assumption (semipelagianism).

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:33 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
Perhaps this question is best left a mystery...

This is not the sort of question that is generally relegated to the realm of mystery. How prayer is appplied--that's a mystery, sometimes. That it is effectual is not, and that the Church clearly prayers for sinners and encourages us to do so is not.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:12 am 
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Christ himself asks us to "pray that you may not fall into temptation". Here, it is taught that prayer helps to overcome temptation, so it follows that 1) prayer is more than acknowledgement of dependence on God, since it can obtain for us a particular good and 2) prayer against temptations is effectual; it does in a way "change" something.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Christ himself asks us to "pray that you may not fall into temptation". Here, it is taught that prayer helps to overcome temptation, so it follows that 1) prayer is more than acknowledgement of dependence on God, since it can obtain for us a particular good and 2) prayer against temptations is effectual; it does in a way "change" something.



Since prayer helps us to overcome temptation, that would be depending on God.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
If the question is impossible to answer, I think it's because it rests on a wrong assumption (semipelagianism).


That would not make it impossible to answer, just that an answer might suggest semipelagianism. What the impossibility of a question suggests is that it is a trick question, a set up as it were.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Where's the trick? I certainly didn't intend it to have one. I believe that the question exposes a serious flaw in that particular way of thinking about God's salvific will.

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