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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:22 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


I bet there are more than a few here who would not be so certain, w/that type of belief in "double predestination", how could you be?

What do you mean by double predestination?



Obviously, there are others here more qualified to answer that.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:27 pm 
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No one is more qualified to say what you mean when you say it.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:49 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


I bet there are more than a few here who would not be so certain, w/that type of belief in "double predestination", how could you be?

What do you mean by double predestination?



Obviously, there are others here more qualified to answer that.


Some are called to understand and discuss theology; others are not because our brains can get tangled up in it. See this instead:

https://mail.yahoo.com/d/folders/1/mess ... artneruser


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


I bet there are more than a few here who would not be so certain, w/that type of belief in "double predestination", how could you be?


How are you using the term "love"?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:42 am 
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Willing the best for another.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:03 pm 
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I think your definition is too restrictive. I think "love" is "willing a good to another". Not necessarily "the best good". The best good is to be God, but surely you don't think it is a lack of love on God's part that none of us save Christ are divine.

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"Be of good heart ... you who are children of Mary. Remember that she accepts as her children all those who choose to be so. Rejoice! Why do you fear to be lost, when such a a Mother defends and protects you?" - St. Alphonsus Liguori

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:07 pm 
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I don't think the reprobate care that they are among the reprobate. "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't think the reprobate care that they are among the reprobate. "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

i always felt that there would be neither reining or serving in either place. the devil rules in Hell and God rules in Heaven so I don't see where any of us lowly humans are going to reign in either place and serving is work and there is no work in Heaven

because Work is 4 letter word

I could be wrong, i guess. I do enjoy some kinds of work but you know.. I thought Heaven was a place kind of like Hawaii, where you are on vacation.. never been to Hawaii but whatever


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:10 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
…the devil rules in Hell…
What makes you think that? Where in Scripture or i Tradition do you find this idea?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:11 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
No one is more qualified to say what you mean when you say it.
Exactly. And this is the problem with this discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:08 pm 
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Seriously, that is the whole problem w/this discussion?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:00 pm 
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Yes, that you are unwilling to explain what you mean by the words you use makes this discussion impossible. To quote Jack3: "No one is more qualified to say what you mean when you say it."

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Well, apparently from others here I don't know what I mean by it, so what does it matter? Look, I posted a link to an article by Tim Staples regarding this issue, I said I believed it and saw no need to go any further w/it. For that I was accused of lying about loving God and had no desire to really know Him, then when I wanted to simply bow out of this discussion all together you accused me of lying and slandering others. I can't win here, the deck is stacked...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:31 pm 
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No. "I am not an expert in theology" is one thing, "Theology is a waste of time" is another. The latter comes from lack of love, since it is not love that rejects knowledge of the beloved. Dorothy B is not an expert in theology, nor am I. Not everyone should become an expert theologian, as was said to you multiple times on this very thread. Similarly, the omment about slander was not because you wanted to bow out but because you misrepresented the arguments given to you (strawman).

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
No. "I am not an expert in theology" is one thing, "Theology is a waste of time" is another. The latter comes from lack of love, since it is not love that rejects knowledge of the beloved. Dorothy B is not an expert in theology, nor am I. Not everyone should become an expert theologian, as was said to you multiple times on this very thread. Similarly, the omment about slander was not because you wanted to bow out but because you misrepresented the arguments given to you (strawman).


Where did I say that theology was a waste of time? I made no willful misrepresentation, so if they were "strawmen", then I was simply wrong, it was not slander, nor lying.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:29 pm 
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I'm sorry, "waste of time" came from flyingaway.

But you did say that theology leads you to despair viewtopic.php?p=2803135#p2803135
and later put up asnarky, erroneous "I'm glad some of you here have God all figured out." viewtopic.php?p=2804022#p2804022

The points being made to you are very different from what you seem to understand them to mean.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:32 pm 
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Guilty of the snarky one, the other was true about this particular doctrine, not theology in general.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Slandering each other over theology is nothing new, I see it all over the internet. In fact, did not the Jesuits and the Franciscans do just that, so much so that the Pope had to step in and tell them to knock it off, over this very subject?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
the other was true about this particular doctrine, not theology in general.

Explain, please - how is predestination opposed to hope, considering that God gives each man grace sufficient for salvation?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Slandering each other over theology is nothing new, I see it all over the internet. In fact, did not the Jesuits and the Franciscans do just that, so much so that the Pope had to step in and tell them to knock it off, over this very subject?

Dominicans, not Franciscans.

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