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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Where's the trick? I certainly didn't intend it to have one. I believe that the question exposes a serious flaw in that particular way of thinking about God's salvific will.


Well, then that would fall into the first category I gave, but not that it is unanswerable, and that the unanswerability of such a question would make the assumption that the original proposition put forth was semipelagian.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm 
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:scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
If the question is impossible to answer, I think it's because it rests on a wrong assumption (semipelagianism).


That would not make it impossible to answer, just that an answer might suggest semipelagianism. What the impossibility of a question suggests is that it is a trick question, a set up as it were.


Here Obi...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:08 pm 
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That is if the question was impossible to answer.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Then, if I understand you correctly, Jack's response is on target. The question is impossible to answer because one (or more) of its assumptions are in conflict with other assumptions. It might be a trick if the conflicting assumption were hidden, but I don't think it is. I think that praying for the conversion of sinners is incompatible with the view of salvation that I hypothesized.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:17 pm 
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No, the answer is I don't know!

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Apparently I've been a jerk here, and have offended a few, namely CC, PED, Jack3, Gherkin...wow, that many? I apologize for my rude behavior and ask forgiveness. Debating these issues have been a sore spot for me, and have rarely born any beneficial fruit, so I think I'm done here, and perhaps from the board all together. Some of you were a great help to me a few years ago and I greatly appreciate that, but think I may have over stayed my welcome, I wish you all the best.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Sometimes it helps to step back and let things calm down, and maybe to avoid discussions that cause tension for you. You're welcome here.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:32 pm 
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Yes, you are welcome Sabbath! We all need each other in this time of crisis.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:50 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It may also be worth pointing out that many modern people who think they hold the Jesuit position actually go well beyond it.

Can there really be said to be a Jesuit position? There used to be such a thing as a Jesuit Thomist.

But yes, many people who are "Molinists" are actually Semipelagians or worse.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:52 am 
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By the time of the Congregatio De Auxiliis, the Jesuits were officially Congruists, which is somewhat mitigated Molinism.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Apparently I've been a jerk here, and have offended a few, namely CC, PED, Jack3, Gherkin...wow, that many? I apologize for my rude behavior and ask for forgiveness. Debating these issues have been a sore spot for me, and have rarely born any beneficial fruit, so I think I'm done here, and perhaps from the board altogether. Some of you were a great help to me a few years ago and I greatly appreciate that but think I may have overstayed my welcome, I wish you all the best.


You might find it better to avoid this topic in the future if you find it difficult to stay calm, but no one is asking you to leave the board.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:41 pm 
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I agree with Doom, Siggy and Dorothy.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:00 pm 
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I agree with Jack3, noting that agreeing is not transitive so I'm not actually agreeing with Doom per se.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Apparently I've been a jerk here, and have offended a few, namely CC, PED, Jack3, Gherkin...wow, that many? I apologize for my rude behavior and ask forgiveness. Debating these issues have been a sore spot for me, and have rarely born any beneficial fruit, so I think I'm done here, and perhaps from the board all together. Some of you were a great help to me a few years ago and I greatly appreciate that, but think I may have over stayed my welcome, I wish you all the best.

I remember butting heads once or twice with you, but I don't recall ever being offended by you. Even if I had been, I wouldn't want to see you leave the board! :fyi:

I have this sneaking feeling that I've offended way more people here over the years than you have. :? It's a talent. :fyi:

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