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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:02 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pope Francis 'Speaking about gay people in 2013, he said that "the key is for the church to welcome, not exclude and show mercy, not condemnation.'

Whereas in the Bible and during the Spanish Inquisition homosexuals were condemned and not shown mercy?

So is Pope Francis right on this issue?

Frankly speaking, I do not know all that you seek. But I'll tell you this: Read the Catechism (CCC) on homosexuality. It is what Pope Francis upholds. The various laws of the Old Testament were provisional, and were a significant improvement over the then-norms, as I have already mentioned to you. Murdering homosexuals simply because of their inclination strikes my Christian consciene as something very wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:20 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pope Francis 'Speaking about gay people in 2013, he said that "the key is for the church to welcome, not exclude and show mercy, not condemnation.'

Whereas in the Bible and during the Spanish Inquisition homosexuals were condemned and not shown mercy?

So is Pope Francis right on this issue?

The Church is to welcome all people, not all ideas. We are all expected to love the sinner but not the sin. Pope Francis describes the Church as a field hospital for sinners. Do people go to the hospital in order to have doctors affirm their maladies? To offer sympathy over their illnesses? Or to correct them?

What makes people with same sex attraction so special, as compared to the rest of us, that they should get a pass when it comes to holiness or repentance? You pretty much have insinuated that "we" (or whoever) hold "LGBT" people to a different standard than we do ourselves, or other people. I disagree with your accusation. I'll propose this to you: instead of discussing same sex attraction, and those who live with those attractions, in contrast to and comparison with other sins/sinners, discuss it in the light of the Gospel.

Are we, or are we not, all of us, regardless of the types of temptations we have, called to submit our struggles to God? Are we or are we not, all of us, called to repentance? Are we or are we not, all of us, called to accept and live out God's revealed design for human sexuality, love, marriage and family?

Jesus said that he came to heal the sick ("the healthy have no need of a physician"), not to accompany them, or to affirm them where they're at. That's all of us. Including our brothers and sisters who are attracted to those of the same sex.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:34 am 
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Well put.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pope Francis 'Speaking about gay people in 2013, he said that "the key is for the church to welcome, not exclude and show mercy, not condemnation.'

Whereas in the Bible and during the Spanish Inquisition homosexuals were condemned and not shown mercy?

So is Pope Francis right on this issue?

Frankly speaking, I do not know all that you seek. But I'll tell you this: Read the Catechism (CCC) on homosexuality. It is what Pope Francis upholds. The various laws of the Old Testament were provisional, and were a significant improvement over the then-norms, as I have already mentioned to you. Murdering homosexuals simply because of their inclination strikes my Christian consciene as something very wrong.

There is a difference between murder and legitimate execution according to the law of the land. Obviously murdering homosexuals is wrong but what I'm trying to find out is whether or not execution according to the law of the land for committing a homosexual act is in accordance with God's law, or is it murder contrary to God's law?

The way people who committed a homosexual act in the Old Testament were punished "in accordance with God's law" is very different to the way the Catholic Catechism instructs Catholics to treat homosexuals in a relationship, and yet we are supposed to believe that both these extremely different ways of treating homosexuals are in accordance with God's law, and at the same time believe that God's laws never change.

Can you see how I and other people, including gay people, might think there is something not quite right in anti-gay religious views about homosexuality?


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
The way people who committed a homosexual act in the Old Testament were punished "in accordance with God's law" is very different to the way the Catholic Catechism instructs Catholics to treat homosexuals in a relationship, and yet we are supposed to believe that both these extremely different ways of treating homosexuals are in accordance with God's law, and at the same time believe that God's laws never change.

Some laws of God do change. eg we may eat pork even though it was forbidden in the Old Testament.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
The way people who committed a homosexual act in the Old Testament were punished "in accordance with God's law" is very different to the way the Catholic Catechism instructs Catholics to treat homosexuals in a relationship, and yet we are supposed to believe that both these extremely different ways of treating homosexuals are in accordance with God's law, and at the same time believe that God's laws never change.

Some laws of God do change. eg we may eat pork even though it was forbidden in the Old Testament.


ForeverFaithful wrote:
God's law (morals) can not change, the judicial precepts of the law (the punishments and legal processes of Israel) were never put forth as eternal.


"God's law (morals) can not change,"
"Some laws of God do change."

Which is it?


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
The way people who committed a homosexual act in the Old Testament were punished "in accordance with God's law" is very different to the way the Catholic Catechism instructs Catholics to treat homosexuals in a relationship, and yet we are supposed to believe that both these extremely different ways of treating homosexuals are in accordance with God's law, and at the same time believe that God's laws never change.

Some laws of God do change. eg we may eat pork even though it was forbidden in the Old Testament.


ForeverFaithful wrote:
God's law (morals) can not change, the judicial precepts of the law (the punishments and legal processes of Israel) were never put forth as eternal.


"God's law (morals) can not change,"
"Some laws of God do change."

Which is it?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2107.htm

https://biblestudyforcatholics.com/the- ... moral-law/

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South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:11 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Xavier wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You put your trust in the Church, not in the Pope. We have had bad popes before, foolish popes before, rash and imprudent popes before, and popes with all those negative attributes and more, in various combinations.

To be a practicing Catholic do you not have to be "under the authority of the Pope"?


When the Pope wears rainbow crosses and arm bands at international Catholic events, should we not all follow suit during Holy Mass as a sign of solidarity with LGBT?

I think the Pope and all Christians should love LGBT people in the way that Jesus loved people.


Jesus loved people who committed sins, even sexual sins, but always said go and sin no more, not define yourself by this sin



AMEN to that.

why is it that the liberals of our society can always remember certain Bible passages but not others? not hard to figure out that one..

Heck, we don't even hear preachers or priests saying much about that Go and sin no more psg.. (not that I can speak for nonCatholic preachers.. haven't been to a nonCatholic church in yrs)

Catholic priests NEVER speak of Hell and how most people end up there.. even most "Christians"

yet Jesus spoke more about Hell (I have heard) than Heaven.. and he warned us of this ETERNAL damnation.. incurred for violating God's laws.. yes, God's laws... Some people are so Protestantized that they actually have convinced themselves of that once saved always saved LIE. Where does it say THAT in the Bible (all you Bible believers so called)????


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:21 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
why is it that the liberals of our society can always remember certain Bible passages but not others? not hard to figure out that one..

The one you can count on them remembering is the reminder to go in your room and pray. On this they are fundamentalist inerrantists.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
why is it that the liberals of our society can always remember certain Bible passages but not others? not hard to figure out that one..

The one you can count on them remembering is the reminder to go in your room and pray. On this they are fundamentalist inerrantists.



yes, i had a "friend" yrs ago who was uncomfortable w/ me praying nearby, even though I don't recall saying much out loud. This person tended toward liberalism, but was actually at times conservative, but in any case, when told to, as you say, go into my closet (alone) and pray, I took it for what it likely was: a way to stop me from praying. That person was not big on prayer IMO (though really, I am not sure. Who can ever be sure how much someone else prays? but just my perceptions--). Anyway, I also heard once that Jesus never said anything against homosexuality!

for one, the Old Testament AND the New have plenty to say about this. and Jesus quoted the Old T a lot.

for another, we do not have all that Jesus did and said written down for us in the Bible.. and it SAYS this in the Bible.. Peter? about how if all that Jesus did and said were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:53 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
That person was not big on prayer IMO

I seriously don't think it's a good idea to try to estimate how prayerful another person is.

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for another, we do not have all that Jesus did and said written down for us in the Bible.. and it SAYS this in the Bible.. Peter? about how if all that Jesus did and said were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all

John

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:26 pm 
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?
Quote:

I think the Pope and all Christians should love LGBT people in the way that Jesus loved people.

fortunately it is nowhere in God's Word that we have to LIKE them


:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Hi, my first post here, so be kind.. :D

Has anyone considered that homosexuality and narcissism are realms of evil?


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Some laws of God do change. eg we may eat pork even though it was forbidden in the Old Testament.[/quote]

Pork and shellfish are still unclean: think about it under cooked pork can lead to Trichinosis and shellfish can lead to kidney stones...they're all bottom feeders.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ5PCze8Kto


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Acts 10:15, my friend. Acts 10:15. :fyi:

But if you don't want to eat pork and shellfish, I won't stand in your way. More bbq and Low Country Boil for me! :cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Acts 10:15, my friend. Acts 10:15. :fyi:

But if you don't want to eat pork and shellfish, I won't stand in your way. More bbq and Low Country Boil for me! :cloud9:



Esp. Low Country Boil

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:12 pm 
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One of these days wrote:
Pork and shellfish are still unclean: think about it under cooked pork can lead to Trichinosis and shellfish can lead to kidney stones...they're all bottom feeders.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ5PCze8Kto
You are confusing two utterly unrelated usages of the word 'unclean.' The Israelites weren't banned from eating pork because it can lead to Trichinosis.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:38 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Acts 10:15, my friend. Acts 10:15. :fyi:

But if you don't want to eat pork and shellfish, I won't stand in your way. More bbq and Low Country Boil for me! :cloud9:



Esp. Low Country Boil

I have spoiled my stepchildren, GKC. They had never had Low Country Boil until I made it for them. Now it's become a tradition every time I come down to visit. Last time was the day after Thanksgiving, and I spent over $200 on seafood for 20..not including me, because I had a conflict on the only night all the stepkids could get together. I got it started, left instructions with the eldest stepdaughter on when to add which ingredients, and took off for my event.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:33 pm 
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One of these days wrote:
Some laws of God do change. eg we may eat pork even though it was forbidden in the Old Testament.


Pork and shellfish are still unclean: think about it under cooked pork can lead to Trichinosis and shellfish can lead to kidney stones...they're all bottom feeders.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ5PCze8Kto[/quote]


...I'm going to cut you into little pieces!

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:22 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Xavier wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You put your trust in the Church, not in the Pope. We have had bad popes before, foolish popes before, rash and imprudent popes before, and popes with all those negative attributes and more, in various combinations.

To be a practicing Catholic do you not have to be "under the authority of the Pope"?


When the Pope wears rainbow crosses and arm bands at international Catholic events, should we not all follow suit during Holy Mass as a sign of solidarity with LGBT?

I think the Pope and all Christians should love LGBT people in the way that Jesus loved people.

we humans must ALWAYS define the word Love

a lot of people think that if you love someone, you have to accept that person's lifestyle.. plug your nose and talk to these people and invite them over for tea and crumpets.. NO!

be kind to them, but gently admonish them and let them know that what they are doing is WRONG in God's eyes. Know what? They already know that... Deep inside, people know when they are doing wrong. True, some have "seared" the conscience but probably most people living like that still have a conscience? God knows but in any case..

the Word says not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. I think that is 1 or maybe 2 Corinithians 6:14


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