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Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
http://forums.avemariaradio.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=169382
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Author:  flyingaway [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Xavier wrote:
Taylor Marshal summarizes what Catholic clergy have said: Pope Francis is promoting and protecting gay clergy and those supportive of the lifestyle. Pope Francis also openly attacks and demotes those who challenge him in this area.

There is the highly detailed testimony of Archbishop Vigano. There is also the testimony of Cardinal Gerhard Müller, Bishop Marian Eleganti, and Bishop Athanasius Schneider.

Then there is Father James Martin, whom I know people on this forum have called a heretic. Well, Pope Francis promoted this gay activist to a leadership position within Vatican Communications. By itself this says a lot about the Pope's priorities. But Fr Martin himself has also said Pope Francis appoints bishops and cardinals who support the homosexual agenda.

Well, like I said, this is all very hard on me. I get the feeling not many people here are particularly bothered by the situation. That's very disappointing, too.

I am with you, very disturbed.

I have no idea what to do about it. I find myself distrustful of certain priests and others in the Church. As you probably realize, there is the Divine aspect of the Church and the human.. I try to ignore the human.

Author:  Jack3 [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism

Author:  Denise Dee [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism


Christ - All the various Christian denominations claim to be guided by Christ. Who interprets the words of Christ in the Bible or the presence of Christ in your life? Yourself? Or the Church led by the Pope? Or someone or something else?

The clear authoritative teaching of Popes - if Pope Francis cannot be trusted to guide Catholics then who's to say that other Popes haven't also misguided Catholics? Whose to say whether a Pope's teaching is "clear authoritative teaching" or not? You may have your opinion and I may have my opinion, and who's to say which of us is right? For example, one Catholic may say that Pope Paul's teaching about contraception is correct, while another may say Pope Paul made a mistake. Nobody is in a position to say who is right, if some Catholics think Pope Francis cannot be trusted to teach correctly, then other Catholics can equally choose to believe that Pope Paul did not teach correctly about contraception.

The Catechism - Which Catechism? There are different Catechisms written with the authority of different Popes. The next Catechism will probably say that capital punishment is wrong under all circumstances, different from the current Catechism and very different from older Catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism as I discovered soon after I came to this message board says different things about baptism than the current Catechism.

Author:  Alexandros [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Peregrinator wrote:
This was less of a problem before the current Papacy, even though many ill-advised changes were introduced under previous Popes (e.g., the Breviary reform of St. Pius X, the Holy Week reform of Pius XII, the New Missal of ̶S̶t̶.̶ Paul VI - to name a few!).


It's more of a problem now because people are doing hyper mental gymnastics to defend the Pope? Or because they are canonizing every last one of them when they don't deserve it? Or both? Or something else?

Author:  Peetem [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism


Christ - All the various Christian denominations claim to be guided by Christ. Who interprets the words of Christ in the Bible or the presence of Christ in your life? Yourself? Or the Church led by the Pope? Or someone or something else?

The clear authoritative teaching of Popes - if Pope Francis cannot be trusted to guide Catholics then who's to say that other Popes haven't also misguided Catholics? Whose to say whether a Pope's teaching is "clear authoritative teaching" or not? You may have your opinion and I may have my opinion, and who's to say which of us is right? For example, one Catholic may say that Pope Paul's teaching about contraception is correct, while another may say Pope Paul made a mistake. Nobody is in a position to say who is right, if some Catholics think Pope Francis cannot be trusted to teach correctly, then other Catholics can equally choose to believe that Pope Paul did not teach correctly about contraception.

The Catechism - Which Catechism? There are different Catechisms written with the authority of different Popes. The next Catechism will probably say that capital punishment is wrong under all circumstances, different from the current Catechism and very different from older Catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism as I discovered soon after I came to this message board says different things about baptism than the current Catechism.


You're carrying this a bit too far.

Pope Francis has not explcitly taught error. However, that doesn't mean he's a good Pope.

Pope Paul simply echoed 2000 years of Church teaching. He didn't create a new teaching on contraception.

Pope's do not create new dogma.

Author:  Doom [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.


Jesus Christ. Do you think that Catholics are followers of a mere man? Do you think the pope or the bishops are the origins of our faith?

Author:  Denise Dee [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.


Jesus Christ. Do you think that Catholics are followers of a mere man? Do you think the pope or the bishops are the origins of our faith?

All Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. What singles out Catholicism from all the other Christian religions?

I thought it was something to do with Jesus ordaining Peter saying "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, " and all the Popes being the successor of Peter.

Author:  theJack [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

A better question, Denise, is who well represents the traditional Catholic traditions. Who can you read who more or less faithfully presents Church doctrine as it has historically been taught as opposed to revisionist or revolutionary folk who want to change the Church's doctrine into something it's never been before. To try to be a little clearer, I'm not suggesting that those revisionists are bad people or am attributing to them poor motivations. I expect even the most liberal, anti-traditionalist really do at least think they are trying to improve the Church. That is, they want what they see as change for the better. But that's beside the point. If you want to know what the Church says, you should look at those who are faithful to what she has always said. And I'm sure posters here can give you a list a mile long of respectable writers from whom you could learn and so develop this habit of thinking, as it is sometimes put.

Author:  ForeverFaithful [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.


Jesus Christ

Author:  Denise Dee [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

ForeverFaithful wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.


Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ as interpreted and understood by whom?

Author:  ForeverFaithful [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Denise Dee wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.


Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ as interpreted and understood by whom?


Jesus Christ as He Himself has taught us through the universal and constant magisterium of His Church.

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

It's the third time Dee gets that reply to that question :fyi:

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism


Christ - All the various Christian denominations claim to be guided by Christ. Who interprets the words of Christ in the Bible or the presence of Christ in your life? Yourself? Or the Church led by the Pope? Or someone or something else?

The clear authoritative teaching of Popes - if Pope Francis cannot be trusted to guide Catholics then who's to say that other Popes haven't also misguided Catholics? Whose to say whether a Pope's teaching is "clear authoritative teaching" or not? You may have your opinion and I may have my opinion, and who's to say which of us is right? For example, one Catholic may say that Pope Paul's teaching about contraception is correct, while another may say Pope Paul made a mistake. Nobody is in a position to say who is right, if some Catholics think Pope Francis cannot be trusted to teach correctly, then other Catholics can equally choose to believe that Pope Paul did not teach correctly about contraception.

The Catechism - Which Catechism? There are different Catechisms written with the authority of different Popes. The next Catechism will probably say that capital punishment is wrong under all circumstances, different from the current Catechism and very different from older Catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism as I discovered soon after I came to this message board says different things about baptism than the current Catechism.

Quote:
The Theological Grades of Certainty
De fide definita, fides divina and fides catholica: The highest degree of certainty appertains to the immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one's certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are "de fide definita."
Fides ecclesiastica: Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiastica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.
Sententia fidei proxima: A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation. but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
Theologice certa: A Teaching pertaining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions).
Sententia communis: Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.
Sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata: Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata). which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church.

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Christ as interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church.

What if Popes contradict each other? If a Pope, qua a private person says something (off the cuff), it cannot trump the definitive teaching of authoritative documents. If even these documents appear to contradict each other, we must try to reconcile them. If difficulty still persists? That would be very sad. If I were in such a situation, I would consider the arguments.

Author:  GKC [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism


Christ - All the various Christian denominations claim to be guided by Christ. Who interprets the words of Christ in the Bible or the presence of Christ in your life? Yourself? Or the Church led by the Pope? Or someone or something else?

The clear authoritative teaching of Popes - if Pope Francis cannot be trusted to guide Catholics then who's to say that other Popes haven't also misguided Catholics? Whose to say whether a Pope's teaching is "clear authoritative teaching" or not? You may have your opinion and I may have my opinion, and who's to say which of us is right? For example, one Catholic may say that Pope Paul's teaching about contraception is correct, while another may say Pope Paul made a mistake. Nobody is in a position to say who is right, if some Catholics think Pope Francis cannot be trusted to teach correctly, then other Catholics can equally choose to believe that Pope Paul did not teach correctly about contraception.

The Catechism - Which Catechism? There are different Catechisms written with the authority of different Popes. The next Catechism will probably say that capital punishment is wrong under all circumstances, different from the current Catechism and very different from older Catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism as I discovered soon after I came to this message board says different things about baptism than the current Catechism.

Quote:
The Theological Grades of Certainty
De fide definita, fides divina and fides catholica: The highest degree of certainty appertains to the immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one's certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are "de fide definita."
Fides ecclesiastica: Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiastica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.
Sententia fidei proxima: A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation. but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
Theologice certa: A Teaching pertaining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions).
Sententia communis: Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.
Sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata: Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata). which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church.


Got some Ott, there, I see.

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

GKC wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here is a direct question to every Catholic who thinks the Pope is a bad leader of the Church and I should therefore not be guided by his version of Catholicism: Name me one leader of the Church whom I should be guided by. Name a name.

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism


Christ - All the various Christian denominations claim to be guided by Christ. Who interprets the words of Christ in the Bible or the presence of Christ in your life? Yourself? Or the Church led by the Pope? Or someone or something else?

The clear authoritative teaching of Popes - if Pope Francis cannot be trusted to guide Catholics then who's to say that other Popes haven't also misguided Catholics? Whose to say whether a Pope's teaching is "clear authoritative teaching" or not? You may have your opinion and I may have my opinion, and who's to say which of us is right? For example, one Catholic may say that Pope Paul's teaching about contraception is correct, while another may say Pope Paul made a mistake. Nobody is in a position to say who is right, if some Catholics think Pope Francis cannot be trusted to teach correctly, then other Catholics can equally choose to believe that Pope Paul did not teach correctly about contraception.

The Catechism - Which Catechism? There are different Catechisms written with the authority of different Popes. The next Catechism will probably say that capital punishment is wrong under all circumstances, different from the current Catechism and very different from older Catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism as I discovered soon after I came to this message board says different things about baptism than the current Catechism.

Quote:
The Theological Grades of Certainty
De fide definita, fides divina and fides catholica: The highest degree of certainty appertains to the immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one's certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are "de fide definita."
Fides ecclesiastica: Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiastica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.
Sententia fidei proxima: A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation. but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
Theologice certa: A Teaching pertaining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions).
Sententia communis: Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.
Sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata: Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata). which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church.


Got some Ott, there, I see.

mmmmm... ott
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the- ... a_services

All joking aside, I'll say with Mrs Timmy: Is there any topic on which you can't intelligently converse :clap:

Author:  Peregrinator [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Alexandros wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
This was less of a problem before the current Papacy, even though many ill-advised changes were introduced under previous Popes (e.g., the Breviary reform of St. Pius X, the Holy Week reform of Pius XII, the New Missal of ̶S̶t̶.̶ Paul VI - to name a few!).


It's more of a problem now because people are doing hyper mental gymnastics to defend the Pope? Or because they are canonizing every last one of them when they don't deserve it? Or both? Or something else?


It's more of a problem now, I think, because Pope Francis is - to put it charitably - more doctrinally lax than his predecessors, and also very prone to saying whatever is on his mind without worrying whether it is confusing or even in contradiction to the doctrine of the Church.

Author:  GKC [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Jack3 wrote:
GKC wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:

Christ
The clear authoritative teaching of Popes
The Catechism


Christ - All the various Christian denominations claim to be guided by Christ. Who interprets the words of Christ in the Bible or the presence of Christ in your life? Yourself? Or the Church led by the Pope? Or someone or something else?

The clear authoritative teaching of Popes - if Pope Francis cannot be trusted to guide Catholics then who's to say that other Popes haven't also misguided Catholics? Whose to say whether a Pope's teaching is "clear authoritative teaching" or not? You may have your opinion and I may have my opinion, and who's to say which of us is right? For example, one Catholic may say that Pope Paul's teaching about contraception is correct, while another may say Pope Paul made a mistake. Nobody is in a position to say who is right, if some Catholics think Pope Francis cannot be trusted to teach correctly, then other Catholics can equally choose to believe that Pope Paul did not teach correctly about contraception.

The Catechism - Which Catechism? There are different Catechisms written with the authority of different Popes. The next Catechism will probably say that capital punishment is wrong under all circumstances, different from the current Catechism and very different from older Catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism as I discovered soon after I came to this message board says different things about baptism than the current Catechism.

Quote:
The Theological Grades of Certainty
De fide definita, fides divina and fides catholica: The highest degree of certainty appertains to the immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one's certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are "de fide definita."
Fides ecclesiastica: Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiastica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.
Sententia fidei proxima: A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation. but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
Theologice certa: A Teaching pertaining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions).
Sententia communis: Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.
Sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata: Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata). which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church.


Got some Ott, there, I see.

mmmmm... ott
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the- ... a_services

All joking aside, I'll say with Mrs Timmy: Is there any topic on which you can't intelligently converse :clap:


Yes. Such topics almost always are outside my major reading or experiential areas.

I got my Ott around 25 years ago.

You and Mrs. T. are both very kind.

Author:  Xavier [ Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

While traveling this week for work, I've had extra time to think and pray. Even if Rome is burning, I can continue to practice the Catholic faith as best I know how.

Plus, if this man who was sexually abused by Cardinal McCarrick for 18 years can remain a Catholic, then so can I. His story is powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYs6fo-HiE

Author:  Notnew [ Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis

Good to hear, Xavier.
I'm glad you've found your peace for now.

Our priest's homily on the readings was beautiful and encouraging yesterday evening.
The passage from Baruch being a favorite of his each 3rd cycle he said.
He explained (among other things) that we are wandering in the desert somewhat - in the desert of secularism, etc.

http://usccb.org/bible/readings/120918.cfm

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