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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:59 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Denise Dee wrote:
So my point is why should I accept Jack3's interpretation is correct, or that your interpretation is correct, or that some harsh joyless militant on YouTube is correct, and the Pope's interpretation is wrong? Who do you think I might think has the more credibility and authority?

It's not my interpretation, but the interpretation of other Popes, his predecessors.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
Quote:
Do you think you are cleverer and more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis? If not, then why should I accept what you say and reject what the Pope teaches.


do you think no one on Earth could possibly be more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis

There may be some people more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis but I doubt that Jack3 is one of them. I'm certainly not one of them. So my point is why should I accept Jack3's interpretation is correct, or that your interpretation is correct, or that some harsh joyless militant on YouTube is correct, and the Pope's interpretation is wrong? Who do you think I might think has the more credibility and authority?

well, i just don't like a lot of things the pope does/says

he is causing division and that is the last thing the Church needs.. didn't we have enough of that in 1521 with the heretic Luther? Look @ the damage that has been caused since


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:


Once again, why should I accept your interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation? Am I supposed to think that you're cleverer than the Pope, or that you're a better or holier or truer Catholic than the Pope, or what?


Catholicism is not a Papal cult of personality, the Pope is not like the Mormon 'Living Prophet' who has the authority to declare that he received new revelation and change the teachings of the Church however he sees fit. Catholicism is NOT just 'the Pope's interpretation', Catholicism exists independently of this Pope or ANY Pope.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:18 pm 
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This article is good to read with regard to what is being discussed here:

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/wh ... -to-resign


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:


Once again, why should I accept your interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation? Am I supposed to think that you're cleverer than the Pope, or that you're a better or holier or truer Catholic than the Pope, or what?


Catholicism is not a Papal cult of personality, the Pope is not like the Mormon 'Living Prophet' who has the authority to declare that he received new revelation and change the teachings of the Church however he sees fit. Catholicism is NOT just 'the Pope's interpretation', Catholicism exists independently of this Pope or ANY Pope.

Catholicism is not a Papal cult of personality, but on matters of faith and morals all Popes speak with an authority which Catholics are required to accept, or else no Pope speaks with an authority which Catholics are required to accept. You can’t have one sort of rule for how Popes up until Pope Francis have taught, and then suddenly say Pope Francis is different.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So my point is why should I accept Jack3's interpretation is correct, or that your interpretation is correct, or that some harsh joyless militant on YouTube is correct, and the Pope's interpretation is wrong? Who do you think I might think has the more credibility and authority?

It's not my interpretation, but the interpretation of other Popes, his predecessors.

But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation. It's not Pope Francis's interpretation. You think the teachings of Pope Francis conflict with the teachings of previous Popes. But Pope Francis says his teachings do not conflict with the teachings of previous Popes. You think you can understand and interpret Catholic teachings better than Pope Francis. I have no reason to believe that you can.

In matters of faith and morals you think that the teachings of Popes should be understood and accepted, except for Pope Francis. You can't have it both ways. Either the teachings of Popes including Pope Francis should be understood and accepted, or else there is no requirement for Catholics to accept the teachings of any Popes.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:38 am 
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Jesus said "Come unto me, all you who labor and are heavy ladened and I will give you rest."
Not: Come unto (Fill in the blank).
I would not ever consider leaving Christ because of some Christian leader's actions. The problem, as I see it, is that Xavier, on some level, equates the pope with truth. I can see how that can happen.

Xavier must have struck a cord that resonates. He left the building about 5 or 6 pages ago, yet, the conversation he sparked has grown legs. I sense that he has a heart after God. I pray he finds the truth as described by Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:53 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
You can’t have one sort of rule for how Popes up until Pope Francis have taught, and then suddenly say Pope Francis is different.

viewtopic.php?p=2801014#p2801014
The very second reply in this thread:

Quote:
You put your trust in the Church, not in the Pope. We have had bad popes before, foolish popes before, rash and imprudent popes before, and popes with all those negative attributes and more, in various combinations.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:58 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.

:brick: :brick: :brick:
To my ignore list, off you go.
Realizing that the effectiveness of this exchange is inadequate, I would like to bow out...

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:02 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.

:brick: :brick: :brick:
To my ignore list, off you go.
Realizing that the effectiveness of this exchange is inadequate, I would like to bow out...

Ignore me if you want, Jack3, but the point you are ignoring and refusing to address is that in matters of faith and morals, Catholics are supposed to respect and be guided by the teachings of Popes, including Pope Francis.

Catholics are required to give the same level of assent to Pope Francis's encyclicals and apostolic exhortations as they are required to give to all previous encyclicals and apostolic exhortations from all other Popes.

You are supposed to listen to the teachings of the Pope, try to understand with a good heart, and even if the teachings are not given the stamp of "infallible", you are nevertheless required to give your assent as far as possible, and if you disagree, you are required to disagree respectfully.

So if you think it's okay for Catholics to disrespect, disagree with and show contempt for Pope Francis's encyclicals and apostolic exhortations, then you must think it's okay for Catholics to disrespect, disagree with and show contempt for the encyclicals and apostolic exhortations of all Popes. In which case you are a Cafeteria Catholic of the worst kind, picking and choosing which teachings you want to accept and which teachings you feel free to reject, and showing disrespect and contempt for the Pope.

If I have got any of the above wrong, I'm sure some well informed Catholics will explain what I've got wrong, rather than ignoring me.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:03 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.


This kind of argument is pure sophistry. By making this 'argument' you are proving yourself to be a dishonest person uninterested in truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.


This kind of argument is pure sophistry. By making this 'argument' you are proving yourself to be a dishonest person uninterested in truth.

Nonsense, Doom. If you don't understand the very legitimate point I made, then you shouldn't comment, especially such an uncharitable comment. I have no doubt that other people, such as for example The Jack, understand my point.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.


This kind of argument is pure sophistry. By making this 'argument' you are proving yourself to be a dishonest person uninterested in truth.

Nonsense, Doom. If you don't understand the very legitimate point I made, then you shouldn't comment, especially such an uncharitable comment. I have no doubt that other people, such as for example The Jack, understand my point.


The Church defines the relevant utterances of Popes, as to degree of theological certainty and the same with utterances/statements/ teachings that comprise the Masgisterium , not individuals such as Jack3, who merely must affirm such teachings.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.


This kind of argument is pure sophistry. By making this 'argument' you are proving yourself to be a dishonest person uninterested in truth.

Nonsense, Doom. If you don't understand the very legitimate point I made, then you shouldn't comment, especially such an uncharitable comment. I have no doubt that other people, such as for example The Jack, understand my point.


I understand your point completely, it is simply that your point is sophistical. Simply saying 'that is just X's interpretation' in response to every citation of a source is simply being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, which is classic sophistry.

I completely understand the game you are playing here, you want to claim that Church teaching is ambiguous or is simply a matter of so and so's interpretation because you want to use the pretext of a lack of clarity as the basis for rejecting said teaching. For whatever reason, you don't want to say 'I know what the Church teaches and I reject it', you want to say 'well, no one really knows for sure what the Church teaches, so who is to say that I am wrong?' I've encountered this little game before.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:03 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
... He left the building about 5 or 6 pages ago ...

You did see his update 3 pages ago - near the bottom of pg 4?
Just wondering ...

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Notnew wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
... He left the building about 5 or 6 pages ago ...

You did see his update 3 pages ago - near the bottom of pg 4?
Just wondering ...


It is a grace-filled update!


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Doom wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.


This kind of argument is pure sophistry. By making this 'argument' you are proving yourself to be a dishonest person uninterested in truth.

Nonsense, Doom. If you don't understand the very legitimate point I made, then you shouldn't comment, especially such an uncharitable comment. I have no doubt that other people, such as for example The Jack, understand my point.


I understand your point completely, it is simply that your point is sophistical. Simply saying 'that is just X's interpretation' in response to every citation of a source is simply being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, which is classic sophistry.

I completely understand the game you are playing here, you want to claim that Church teaching is ambiguous or is simply a matter of so and so's interpretation because you want to use the pretext of a lack of clarity as the basis for rejecting said teaching. For whatever reason, you don't want to say 'I know what the Church teaches and I reject it', you want to say 'well, no one really knows for sure what the Church teaches, so who is to say that I am wrong?' I've encountered this little game before.

Blimey! You couldn't be more wrong, Doom! I'm saying the opposite of what you're claiming I'm saying, Doom. I'm saying the only clarity is to listen to and understand what Pope Francis is teaching. That's the only way to know what the Church teaches. Everything else is just the interpretations of people with no authority to teach, no different from the various Protestant denominations where everyone has their own interpretation.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:10 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.

:brick: :brick: :brick:
To my ignore list, off you go.
Realizing that the effectiveness of this exchange is inadequate, I would like to bow out...

Ignore me if you want, Jack3, but the point you are ignoring and refusing to address is that in matters of faith and morals, Catholics are supposed to respect and be guided by the teachings of Popes, including Pope Francis.

Catholics are required to give the same level of assent to Pope Francis's encyclicals and apostolic exhortations as they are required to give to all previous encyclicals and apostolic exhortations from all other Popes.

You are supposed to listen to the teachings of the Pope, try to understand with a good heart, and even if the teachings are not given the stamp of "infallible", you are nevertheless required to give your assent as far as possible, and if you disagree, you are required to disagree respectfully.

So if you think it's okay for Catholics to disrespect, disagree with and show contempt for Pope Francis's encyclicals and apostolic exhortations, then you must think it's okay for Catholics to disrespect, disagree with and show contempt for the encyclicals and apostolic exhortations of all Popes. In which case you are a Cafeteria Catholic of the worst kind, picking and choosing which teachings you want to accept and which teachings you feel free to reject, and showing disrespect and contempt for the Pope.

If I have got any of the above wrong, I'm sure some well informed Catholics will explain what I've got wrong, rather than ignoring me.



The Church teaches that we must go according to our conscience, yet we also have an obligation to inform said conscience

just speaking perception-wise, it seems you have a problem (just being honest here) with people who "think for themselves"

and yet it is NOT merely thinking for ourselves. We know (some of us) what the Church has always taught and when someone comes along, whether pope or not and says No (or implies No) that which the Church once taught is not true anymore.. can you blame that person or persons for having a problem with that?

It is a very dangerous thing to follow someone without really thinking about what it is you are "following".. to follow a person blindly just because he has some important looking title


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:58 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But your belief that your interpretation is "the interpretation of other Popes" is your interpretation.

:brick: :brick: :brick:
To my ignore list, off you go.
Realizing that the effectiveness of this exchange is inadequate, I would like to bow out...

Ignore me if you want, Jack3, but the point you are ignoring and refusing to address is that in matters of faith and morals, Catholics are supposed to respect and be guided by the teachings of Popes, including Pope Francis.

Catholics are required to give the same level of assent to Pope Francis's encyclicals and apostolic exhortations as they are required to give to all previous encyclicals and apostolic exhortations from all other Popes.

You are supposed to listen to the teachings of the Pope, try to understand with a good heart, and even if the teachings are not given the stamp of "infallible", you are nevertheless required to give your assent as far as possible, and if you disagree, you are required to disagree respectfully.

So if you think it's okay for Catholics to disrespect, disagree with and show contempt for Pope Francis's encyclicals and apostolic exhortations, then you must think it's okay for Catholics to disrespect, disagree with and show contempt for the encyclicals and apostolic exhortations of all Popes. In which case you are a Cafeteria Catholic of the worst kind, picking and choosing which teachings you want to accept and which teachings you feel free to reject, and showing disrespect and contempt for the Pope.

If I have got any of the above wrong, I'm sure some well informed Catholics will explain what I've got wrong, rather than ignoring me.



The Church teaches that we must go according to our conscience, yet we also have an obligation to inform said conscience

just speaking perception-wise, it seems you have a problem (just being honest here) with people who "think for themselves"

and yet it is NOT merely thinking for ourselves. We know (some of us) what the Church has always taught and when someone comes along, whether pope or not and says No (or implies No) that which the Church once taught is not true anymore.. can you blame that person or persons for having a problem with that?

It is a very dangerous thing to follow someone without really thinking about what it is you are "following".. to follow a person blindly just because he has some important looking title

I don't have a problem with people thinking for themselves, I just don't see how, if you think for yourself and vehemently disagree with the teachings of the Pope, how you can call yourself a capital 'C' Catholic under the authority of the Pope.

When registering for this message board it states that if you want to denote your religion below your username in these posts, '"Catholic" is reserved for practicing Catholics (upper case C, please) under the authority of the Pope.'

If anyone thinks the next Pope will change the teachings of Pope Francis, I wouldn't bet on it, as I have read that Pope Francis has already appointed about half of the Cardinals who will elect the next Pope. So I think it's best to get used to the teachings of Pope Francis, and try to understand.

I blame the people who are unwilling to understand. Their faith is so rigid, it will break, instead of allowing a little flexibility.


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