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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:38 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
PS You have already received responses on Papal authority and assent. You should read and understand them. You are asking again what has been answered already.

Give credit where it’s due, JackCubed: at least she’s consistent. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:38 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Ok, this is disturbing as well...

"Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved."


Yes, believers need to pray much. It is a gift from the Lord to have the gift of faith, and we need to use it more strongly.

Prayers on the part of many will begin to change the scene going on in the church now. Our Blessed Mother always asks us to pray during her apparitions. As we become holier the Light of Christ will cause the darkness to recede.



That is not what I found disturbing, but rather our Blessed Mother telling us that She alone is able to save us from the calamities that approach, and that if we put our confidence in her we will be saved.


Okay. I'm not sure where the quote came from. I don't know if it is from Akita (approved by the Bishop there). And I don't know if the translation meant it to come across as though she was putting herself as more powerful than the Lord.

All I can offer is that no one knows better than Our Blessed Mother where her grace comes from. Her will is in perfect union with her Son.

If you want to continue this conversation start a new thread, as we shouldn't derail this one. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:23 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I see, Jack3, so you would rather choose your own interpretation or somebody on the Internet's interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation. If I were to do the same about some other issue, what would you say?

That canon 915 is not about subjective guilt is taught by the very Pope who approved the code of canon law. Now, I ask you to tell me where the current Pope gave a contradictory interpretation of can. 915.

Once again, why should I accept your interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation? Am I supposed to think that you're cleverer than the Pope, or that you're a better or holier or truer Catholic than the Pope, or what?


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:32 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I see, Jack3, so you would rather choose your own interpretation or somebody on the Internet's interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation. If I were to do the same about some other issue, what would you say?

That canon 915 is not about subjective guilt is taught by the very Pope who approved the code of canon law. Now, I ask you to tell me where the current Pope gave a contradictory interpretation of can. 915.

Once again, why should I accept your interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation? Am I supposed to think that you're cleverer than the Pope, or that you're a better holier or truer Catholic than the Pope, or what?

I don't see the point of telling you what you have already been told many times. Catholics don't believe that the Pope is the cleverest and/or holiest person alive. Papal infallibility means that a Pope will not err while teaching ex cathedra on faith or morals to be held by the whole Church. Most other things only need be given a religious submission. On the specific case of Communion to the so called remarried divorcees: The true meaning of canon 915 has been explained clearly with the approval of the Pope who made the canon (rather, approved the code including it) and Pope Francis has not spoken on this canon afaik, let alone abolish it.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:37 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
PS You have already received responses on Papal authority and assent. You should read and understand them. You are asking again what has been answered already.

Give credit where it’s due, JackCubed: at least she’s consistent. :mrgreen:


In the folklore of my fatherland, there is a Naranath Bhranthan who rolls a rock uphill, watches it roll down and keeps repeating this.

^I was using symbolism.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:49 am 
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Sisyphus in Greek myth. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:53 am 
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To him it was punishment. The Bhranthan chose to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:54 am 
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That's very silly. :fyi:

Why would he choose that? No walls around to bang his head into? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:16 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I see, Jack3, so you would rather choose your own interpretation or somebody on the Internet's interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation. If I were to do the same about some other issue, what would you say?

It's not his own interpretation, but the constant and unchanging teaching of the Church, reaffirmed as unchangeable under Pope John Paul II.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:30 am 
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gherkin wrote:
That's very silly. :fyi:

Why would he choose that? No walls around to bang his head into? :scratch:

The word Bhranthan means madman. He's called that for a reason. :fyi:
He was a very wise person who pretended to be mad. Here's another story:
Once Goddess Bhadrakali appeared before him and offered to grant boons to him. But Naranath declined to accept the offer. But the goddess persuaded him to ask something for her satisfaction. He then asked the Goddess to make his lifespan increase by one second. The goddess told him that she didn't have the power to do so. Then he asked her to decrease his lifespan by one second. The goddess was unable to grant that too. Frustrated by this, Naranath asked the Goddess to shift the swelling (lymphedema) from his left leg to right leg, which the goddess readily did.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:32 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I see, Jack3, so you would rather choose your own interpretation or somebody on the Internet's interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation. If I were to do the same about some other issue, what would you say?

It's not his own interpretation, but the constant and unchanging teaching of the Church, reaffirmed as unchangeable under Pope John Paul II.

When I told her that, she asked me the same question again, even starting with "once again". Naranath Bhranthan.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I see, Jack3, so you would rather choose your own interpretation or somebody on the Internet's interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation. If I were to do the same about some other issue, what would you say?

It's not his own interpretation, but the constant and unchanging teaching of the Church, reaffirmed as unchangeable under Pope John Paul II.

You and Jack3 are asserting that Pope Francis is wrong, but why should I believe you and Jack3 rather than Pope Francis and all the Cardinals and bishops and priests who are in support of Pope Francis? Why would I give more credibility to what you and Jack3 assert than to what Pope Francis teaches? Do you think you are cleverer and more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis? If not, then why should I accept what you say and reject what the Pope teaches.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I see, Jack3, so you would rather choose your own interpretation or somebody on the Internet's interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation. If I were to do the same about some other issue, what would you say?

That canon 915 is not about subjective guilt is taught by the very Pope who approved the code of canon law. Now, I ask you to tell me where the current Pope gave a contradictory interpretation of can. 915.

Once again, why should I accept your interpretation instead of the Pope's interpretation? Am I supposed to think that you're cleverer than the Pope, or that you're a better holier or truer Catholic than the Pope, or what?

I don't see the point of telling you what you have already been told many times. Catholics don't believe that the Pope is the cleverest and/or holiest person alive. Papal infallibility means that a Pope will not err while teaching ex cathedra on faith or morals to be held by the whole Church. Most other things only need be given a religious submission. On the specific case of Communion to the so called remarried divorcees: The true meaning of canon 915 has been explained clearly with the approval of the Pope who made the canon (rather, approved the code including it) and Pope Francis has not spoken on this canon afaik, let alone abolish it.

I understand that the Pope can be wrong when not speaking ex cathedra, you don't have to keep repeating that. But I also understand that you can be wrong. So on the issue of remarried divorcees receiving communion, why should I believe that your interpretation of this Catholic teaching is correct and the Pope's interpretation is wrong? Do you have more knowledge than the Pope? Do you have more experience? Are you cleverer, holier, closer to God? Give me one good reason why I should consider your interpretation of this teaching to be more worthy of acceptance than the Pope's interpretation?


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Because there is all the difference between what is being nuanced vs (not) being taught.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Why would I give more credibility to what you and Jack3 assert than to what Pope Francis teaches?

Because we are simply repeating what the Church has always taught and what no one, not even the Pope, has the authority to change.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I understand that the Pope can be wrong when not speaking ex cathedra, you don't have to keep repeating that. But I also understand that you can be wrong.

Yes, any one can be wrong on any issue. But the Church cannot have been wrong for her constant teaching on this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:35 pm 
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l.
Quote:
Who are you to judge whether or not a divorced and remarried person with no annulment is "in mortal sin"? You don't know and understand the circumstances of every divorced and remarried person.

Pope Francis never said "no big deal".

#1 it is Catholic teaching that if you have not received a canonical annulment, and you continue to live as husband and wife (not brother & sister) while legally married to someone else, you are in mortal si

#2 the pope said such persons could receive Communion. So yeh, he did in a very real sense say No big deal.. don't know how better you could say it


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Quote:
Do you think you are cleverer and more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis? If not, then why should I accept what you say and reject what the Pope teaches.


do you think no one on Earth could possibly be more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:30 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Quote:
Do you think you are cleverer and more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis? If not, then why should I accept what you say and reject what the Pope teaches.


do you think no one on Earth could possibly be more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis

There may be some people more knowledgeable about Catholic teaching than Pope Francis but I doubt that Jack3 is one of them. I'm certainly not one of them. So my point is why should I accept Jack3's interpretation is correct, or that your interpretation is correct, or that some harsh joyless militant on YouTube is correct, and the Pope's interpretation is wrong? Who do you think I might think has the more credibility and authority?


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:38 am 
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If only there was a magisterium to interpret the magisterium . . .

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