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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Arius was in apostolic succession.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:19 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:20 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:30 pm 
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OK - First off... You claim to be spat upon by others, and yet the only spittle I see comes from your own mouth. You do realize that you are talking about MY rite. I think your rite is beautiful. I studied your theologians and saints in seminary as a Latin Catholic. I reference them in my classes, especially to defend the Trinity. We teach our students about the whole of the Church which includes these other Apostolic rites. We take our students to a Byzantine Liturgy every year, and every year they cannot wait to go back. We have a Byzantine Catholic on staff who makes sure that anything we teach is amenable to our Eastern brethren and is truly Catholic.

You, on the other hand, question his background without even knowing him. You seriously know nothing about him. You talk about our dogmas in demeaning ways. You claim we make things up. You say a lot of insulting things. And yet, YOU are the one who is being spat upon? Really? This is a victim mentality that you need to shake. My friend described this psychological condition that he sees in a lot of Eastern Catholics. They give themselves permission to be mean-spirited because of some past which is... well... past. What you are doing is akin to saying that because white people owned slaves back in the 1800s that all modern day white people need to pay.

That said... This is from the UCC Catechism… I’d be interested to know, brother, what Fr. Fields would say….

Quote:
"The first among self-governing Churches is the
Church of Rome, because its presider is the Pope of Rome, the successor
of the apostle Peter. He is the teacher and the standard of the apostolic
faith; to him the Lord has granted the gift of infallibility in matters of
faith and morals
[when proclaimed ex cathedra], in order to preserve the
purity and immutability of divine teaching. As the apostle Peter mani-
fested his love for Christ more than others, and received from Christ the
mandate to shepherd his flock (see Jn 21:15-18), so the Roman See of
Peter “presides in love” 244 and maintains a primacy (in Latin,
primatus) among self-governing Churches. 245 This primacy is fulfilled through the
Petrine ministry of the Bishop of Rome. Our Church professes the Pope’s
ministry by titling him “the most holy universal Pontiff."

Christ entrusts the ministry of serving the catholicity (
sobornist) of the Church to the apostle Peter: “I have prayed for you that your own faith
may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your
brothers” (Lk 22:32). The Bishop of Rome, the bearer of the Petrine
ministry, convenes Ecumenical Councils, approves their decisions,
stands behind and expresses the infallible faith-teaching of the Church,
and resolves difficulties that arise in the life of various self-governing
Churches.
The ministry of the Roman Pontiff is a testimony to the
“deepest apostolic past.”247 His ministry is to “strengthen the brethren”
in common faith (see Lk 22:31-42), to be a “rock” (see Mt 16:18), and
“shepherd” (see Jn 21:15-18). “To [the Roman Pontiff ] was commit
-ted in the person of blessed Peter the full power of feeding, ruling, and
governing the whole church, as was established at ecumenical councils
and in the sacred canons.”248

“The Particularity (in Ukrainian, pomisnist ) of our Church lies in her unity with the past; her unity as a
Church in both Ukraine and the diaspora; the oneness of mind with her Patriarch; and her unity with the Universal Church and her Head, the
successor of the holy apostle Peter.”260

If a person has fallen asleep in God, having repented of all sins, but has
not yet achieved spiritual maturity—the fullness of life in Christ—then
that person enters the kingdom of God “as through fire” (1
Cor3:15).
After death, such a person is still in need of spiritual healing and cleans
-ing of all stain, in order to dwell “in a place of light ... where there is no
pain, sorrow, or mourning.”204 In the Church, this healing condition
of the dead is referred to as “purgatory.
[/i]”

205
Every fair and God-beloved soul, once it has been set free from
the bonds of the body, departs hence, and immediately enjoys a
sense and perception of the blessings which await it, inasmuch
as that which darkened it has been purged away, or laid aside—I
know not how else to term it. It then feels a wondrous pleasure
and exultation, and goes rejoicing to meet its Lord.


You said that purgatory is not in your catechism... But, I found it very quickly and clearly.

FJ

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Last edited by forumjunkie on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Prodigal Son of Thunder
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Doom wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Because an indulgence should entirely replace purgatory if it is plenary


Ummmm...what is the basis for that claim?

You're just jumping from one completely baseless claim to another, this is not a sound form of argument.

That's what a plenary indulgence does, Doom - it remits all the temporal punishment due to sin.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:07 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
OK - First off... You claim to be spat upon by others, and yet the only spittle I see comes from your own mouth. You do realize that you are talking about MY rite. I think your rite is beautiful. I studied your theologians and saints in seminary as a Latin Catholic. I reference them in my classes, especially to defend the Trinity. We teach our students about the whole of the Church which includes these other Apostolic rites. We take our students to a Byzantine Liturgy every year, and every year they cannot wait to go back. We have a Byzantine Catholic on staff who makes sure that anything we teach is amenable to our Eastern brethren and is truly Catholic.

You, on the other hand, question his background without even knowing him. You seriously know nothing about him. You talk about our dogmas in demeaning ways. You claim we make things up. You say a lot of insulting things. And yet, YOU are the one who is being spat upon? Really? This is a victim mentality that you need to shake. My friend described this psychological condition that he sees in a lot of Eastern Catholics. They give themselves permission to be mean-spirited because of some past which is... well... past. What you are doing is akin to saying that because white people owned slaves back in the 1800s that all modern day white people need to pay.

That said... This is from the UCC Catechism… I’d be interested to know, brother, what Fr. Fields would say….

Quote:
"The first among self-governing Churches is the
Church of Rome, because its presider is the Pope of Rome, the successor
of the apostle Peter. He is the teacher and the standard of the apostolic
faith; to him the Lord has granted the gift of infallibility in matters of
faith and morals
[when proclaimed ex cathedra], in order to preserve the
purity and immutability of divine teaching. As the apostle Peter mani-
fested his love for Christ more than others, and received from Christ the
mandate to shepherd his flock (see Jn 21:15-18), so the Roman See of
Peter “presides in love” 244 and maintains a primacy (in Latin,
primatus) among self-governing Churches. 245 This primacy is fulfilled through the
Petrine ministry of the Bishop of Rome. Our Church professes the Pope’s
ministry by titling him “the most holy universal Pontiff."

Christ entrusts the ministry of serving the catholicity (
sobornist) of the Church to the apostle Peter: “I have prayed for you that your own faith
may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your
brothers” (Lk 22:32). The Bishop of Rome, the bearer of the Petrine
ministry, convenes Ecumenical Councils, approves their decisions,
stands behind and expresses the infallible faith-teaching of the Church,
and resolves difficulties that arise in the life of various self-governing
Churches.
The ministry of the Roman Pontiff is a testimony to the
“deepest apostolic past.”247 His ministry is to “strengthen the brethren”
in common faith (see Lk 22:31-42), to be a “rock” (see Mt 16:18), and
“shepherd” (see Jn 21:15-18). “To [the Roman Pontiff ] was commit
-ted in the person of blessed Peter the full power of feeding, ruling, and
governing the whole church, as was established at ecumenical councils
and in the sacred canons.”248

“The Particularity (in Ukrainian, pomisnist ) of our Church lies in her unity with the past; her unity as a
Church in both Ukraine and the diaspora; the oneness of mind with her Patriarch; and her unity with the Universal Church and her Head, the
successor of the holy apostle Peter.”260

If a person has fallen asleep in God, having repented of all sins, but has
not yet achieved spiritual maturity—the fullness of life in Christ—then
that person enters the kingdom of God “as through fire” (1
Cor3:15).
After death, such a person is still in need of spiritual healing and cleans
-ing of all stain, in order to dwell “in a place of light ... where there is no
pain, sorrow, or mourning.”204 In the Church, this healing condition
of the dead is referred to as “purgatory.
[/i]”

205
Every fair and God-beloved soul, once it has been set free from
the bonds of the body, departs hence, and immediately enjoys a
sense and perception of the blessings which await it, inasmuch
as that which darkened it has been purged away, or laid aside—I
know not how else to term it. It then feels a wondrous pleasure
and exultation, and goes rejoicing to meet its Lord.


You said that purgatory is not in your catechism... But, I found it very quickly and clearly.

FJ


Score one for you. I found that passage on Papal Infallibility about an hour ago and have been sitting here kind of pondering it for a while. So how does our Patriarch say that we are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." if we do not believe just as the Orthodox do?

Very puzzling to me.

I missed the part on Purgatory. I was scanning the Catechism in PDF format and it is pretty tiny.

So you are correct. It is in the Catechism. I'll have to speak to my spiritual director about this. He claims the same thing I am claiming (He's Melkite) regarding being Orthodox. Wonder what the Melkite Catechism says?


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Going back to the OP.

The OP was questioning the purpose of Purgatory and what appeared to be contradictory purposes to it.

If you go down to the 2nd post on page two, I was stating that part of the previous post was very much in line with Orthodox thinking.

From there.....the cookies hit the fan, didn't they?

All because I identify myself as Orthodox.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Going back to the OP.

The OP was questioning the purpose of Purgatory and what appeared to be contradictory purposes to it.

If you go down to the 2nd post on page two, I was stating that part of the previous post was very much in line with Orthodox thinking.

From there.....the cookies hit the fan, didn't they?

All because I identify myself as Orthodox.


To be clear... The reason it went off the rails is because you claimed to be Catholic in your profile and you said you rejected a dogma of the Catholic Church. Sorry, but, in my book that needs to be corrected when done in public.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Also back to the OP: there are not two purposes to Purgatory. It is precisely the unpaid debt of temporal punishment that stands between the soul and holiness.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:36 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Going back to the OP.

The OP was questioning the purpose of Purgatory and what appeared to be contradictory purposes to it.

If you go down to the 2nd post on page two, I was stating that part of the previous post was very much in line with Orthodox thinking.

From there.....the cookies hit the fan, didn't they?

All because I identify myself as Orthodox.


To be clear... The reason it went off the rails is because you claimed to be Catholic in your profile and you said you rejected a dogma of the Catholic Church. Sorry, but, in my book that needs to be corrected when done in public.

FJ


Fair Dinkum.

For clarity I have changed that to reflect my theology


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Going back to the OP.

The OP was questioning the purpose of Purgatory and what appeared to be contradictory purposes to it.

If you go down to the 2nd post on page two, I was stating that part of the previous post was very much in line with Orthodox thinking.

From there.....the cookies hit the fan, didn't they?

All because I identify myself as Orthodox.


To be clear... The reason it went off the rails is because you claimed to be Catholic in your profile and you said you rejected a dogma of the Catholic Church. Sorry, but, in my book that needs to be corrected when done in public.

FJ


Fair Dinkum.

For clarity I have changed that to reflect my theology


I would rather you change your posts rather than take away your identification with the Catholic Church. :pray:

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
OK - First off... You claim to be spat upon by others, and yet the only spittle I see comes from your own mouth. You do realize that you are talking about MY rite. I think your rite is beautiful. I studied your theologians and saints in seminary as a Latin Catholic. I reference them in my classes, especially to defend the Trinity. We teach our students about the whole of the Church which includes these other Apostolic rites. We take our students to a Byzantine Liturgy every year, and every year they cannot wait to go back. We have a Byzantine Catholic on staff who makes sure that anything we teach is amenable to our Eastern brethren and is truly Catholic.

You, on the other hand, question his background without even knowing him. You seriously know nothing about him. You talk about our dogmas in demeaning ways. You claim we make things up. You say a lot of insulting things. And yet, YOU are the one who is being spat upon? Really? This is a victim mentality that you need to shake. My friend described this psychological condition that he sees in a lot of Eastern Catholics. They give themselves permission to be mean-spirited because of some past which is... well... past. What you are doing is akin to saying that because white people owned slaves back in the 1800s that all modern day white people need to pay.

That said... This is from the UCC Catechism… I’d be interested to know, brother, what Fr. Fields would say….

Quote:
"The first among self-governing Churches is the
Church of Rome, because its presider is the Pope of Rome, the successor
of the apostle Peter. He is the teacher and the standard of the apostolic
faith; to him the Lord has granted the gift of infallibility in matters of
faith and morals
[when proclaimed ex cathedra], in order to preserve the
purity and immutability of divine teaching. As the apostle Peter mani-
fested his love for Christ more than others, and received from Christ the
mandate to shepherd his flock (see Jn 21:15-18), so the Roman See of
Peter “presides in love” 244 and maintains a primacy (in Latin,
primatus) among self-governing Churches. 245 This primacy is fulfilled through the
Petrine ministry of the Bishop of Rome. Our Church professes the Pope’s
ministry by titling him “the most holy universal Pontiff."

Christ entrusts the ministry of serving the catholicity (
sobornist) of the Church to the apostle Peter: “I have prayed for you that your own faith
may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your
brothers” (Lk 22:32). The Bishop of Rome, the bearer of the Petrine
ministry, convenes Ecumenical Councils, approves their decisions,
stands behind and expresses the infallible faith-teaching of the Church,
and resolves difficulties that arise in the life of various self-governing
Churches.
The ministry of the Roman Pontiff is a testimony to the
“deepest apostolic past.”247 His ministry is to “strengthen the brethren”
in common faith (see Lk 22:31-42), to be a “rock” (see Mt 16:18), and
“shepherd” (see Jn 21:15-18). “To [the Roman Pontiff ] was commit
-ted in the person of blessed Peter the full power of feeding, ruling, and
governing the whole church, as was established at ecumenical councils
and in the sacred canons.”248

“The Particularity (in Ukrainian, pomisnist ) of our Church lies in her unity with the past; her unity as a
Church in both Ukraine and the diaspora; the oneness of mind with her Patriarch; and her unity with the Universal Church and her Head, the
successor of the holy apostle Peter.”260

If a person has fallen asleep in God, having repented of all sins, but has
not yet achieved spiritual maturity—the fullness of life in Christ—then
that person enters the kingdom of God “as through fire” (1
Cor3:15).
After death, such a person is still in need of spiritual healing and cleans
-ing of all stain, in order to dwell “in a place of light ... where there is no
pain, sorrow, or mourning.”204 In the Church, this healing condition
of the dead is referred to as “purgatory.
[/i]”

205
Every fair and God-beloved soul, once it has been set free from
the bonds of the body, departs hence, and immediately enjoys a
sense and perception of the blessings which await it, inasmuch
as that which darkened it has been purged away, or laid aside—I
know not how else to term it. It then feels a wondrous pleasure
and exultation, and goes rejoicing to meet its Lord.


You said that purgatory is not in your catechism... But, I found it very quickly and clearly.

FJ


Score one for you. I found that passage on Papal Infallibility about an hour ago and have been sitting here kind of pondering it for a while. So how does our Patriarch say that we are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." if we do not believe just as the Orthodox do?

Very puzzling to me.

I missed the part on Purgatory. I was scanning the Catechism in PDF format and it is pretty tiny.

So you are correct. It is in the Catechism. I'll have to speak to my spiritual director about this. He claims the same thing I am claiming (He's Melkite) regarding being Orthodox. Wonder what the Melkite Catechism says?


I am not here to score points. I am here to correct you and help you because I think you are in serious error. As for your patriarch... well, like all patriarchs (even those in the West)...There are three possibilities. He could be heterodox. Or, you could have misunderstood him. Or, he means that the UCC is like the Orthodox in their approach to theology in contrast (but not contradiction) to the West. The deep spiritual reflection that the East offers is the driving force behind your approach to the mysteries and the Church is more brilliantly displayed when this is acknowledged. He probably (hopefully) meant that communion with Rome, while accepting the basic dogmatic teachings and the authority of the Pope, doesn't mean that the UCC will cease to be the part of the Church that looks to mysticism and traditional liturgy to tell the story, rather than systematic theology like the West. Not that one is better than the other, but that both are needed. And the UCC provides the former. So, in that regard, he is saying that the goal of communion with Rome is simply to place this ancient and apostolic tradition back where it belongs... within the Catholic Church.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:13 pm 
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One last point (sorry doom)... My friend described the dilemma this way. He said that Eastern Catholic Bishops will acknowledge everything I am saying. They are in communion with Rome and that means that they accept everything the Church teaches. But, the priests they ordain may go to Orthodox seminaries and come out with not so firm of a conviction or understanding of this union. And so the laity end up with a more Orthodox rather than Catholic mentality. It is a trickle down animosity toward the West. He says we need more Uniate Seminaries that can deal with these more delicate issues and properly form Eastern Catholic priests. Until that time, we will be in this sort of messy back and forth. But, as your catechism states very clearly, Eastern Catholicism is Catholicism.... though expressed out of the other lung.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:19 pm 
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It is true that there have been Latin Catholics who have mistreated Eastern Catholics. My fathers resisted, and their blood runs in my veins.
At the same time, not all Latin Catholics are like this. In this very board, for example, all but one members have respected my patrimony.
Many Latin theologians respect, say, Basil and Chrysostom. This favour is not always returned, so to speak.

Light of the East wrote:
The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges the Orthodox Church as part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church established by Christ by means of valid Sacraments and apostolic succession....

So "in communion"simply means a recognition of apostolicity and unity between the two.

any congregation which has the Eucharist is part of the Body of Christ, which is the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

Please provide sources for these assertions.

Au contraire, I can quote
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... io_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... us_en.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/e ... nitum.html

The last one is from Pope Leo, whom no one would call an enemy of Eastern Catholics. He writes:

Quote:
But He, indeed, Who made this one Church, also gave it unity, that is, He made it such that all who are to belong to it must be united by the closest bonds, so as to form one society, one kingdom, one body - "one body and one spirit as you are called in one hope of your calling (Eph. iv., 4). Jesus Christ, when His death was nigh at hand, declared His will in this matter, and solemnly offered it up, thus addressing His Father: "Not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in Me...that they also may be one in Us...that they may be made perfect in one" (John xvii., 20-21 23). Yea, He commanded that this unity should be so closely knit and so perfect amongst His followers that it might, in some measure, shadow forth the union between Himself and His Father: "I pray that they all may be one as Thou Father in Me and I in Thee" (Ibid. 21).

Agreement and union of minds is the necessary foundation of this perfect concord amongst men, from which concurrence of wills and similarity of action are the natural results. Wherefore, in His divine wisdom, He ordained in His Church Unity of Faith; a virtue which is the first of those bonds which unite man to God, and whence we receive the name of the faithful - "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. iv., 5). That is, as there is one Lord and one baptism, so should all Christians, without exception, have but one faith. And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: "I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. i., 10). Such passages certainly need no interpreter; they speak clearly enough for themselves. Besides, all who profess Christianity allow that there can be but one faith. It is of the greatest importance and indeed of absolute necessity, as to which many are deceived, that the nature and character of this unity should be recognized. And, as We have already stated, this is not to be ascertained by conjecture, but by the certain knowledge of what was done; that is by seeking for and ascertaining what kind of unity in faith has been commanded by Jesus Christ.

The heavenly doctrine of Christ, although for the most part committed to writing by divine inspiration, could not unite the minds of men if left to the human intellect alone. It would, for this very reason, be subject to various and contradictory interpretations. This is so, not only because of the nature of the doctrine itself and of the mysteries it involves, but also because of the divergencies of the human mind and of the disturbing element of conflicting passions. From a variety of interpretations a variety of beliefs is necessarily begotten; hence come controversies, dissensions and wranglings such as have arisen in the past, even in the first ages of the Church. Irenaeus writes of heretics as follows: "Admitting the sacred Scriptures they distort the interpretations" (Lib. iii., cap. 12, n. 12). And Augustine: "Heresies have arisen, and certain perverse views ensnaring souls and precipitating them into the abyss only when the Scriptures, good in themselves, are not properly understood" (In Evang. Joan., tract xviii., cap. 5, n. I). Besides Holy Writ it was absolutely necessary to insure this union of men's minds - to effect and preserve unity of ideas - that there should be another principle. This the wisdom of God requires: for He could not have willed that the faith should be one if He did not provide means sufficient for the preservation of this unity; and this Holy Writ clearly sets forth as We shall presently point out...

The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a tertian portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Sorry, Doom

forumjunkie wrote:
I think your rite is beautiful. I studied your theologians and saints in seminary as a Latin Catholic. I reference them in my classes, especially to defend the Trinity. We teach our students about the whole of the Church which includes these other Apostolic rites. We take our students to a Byzantine Liturgy every year, and every year they cannot wait to go back. We have a Byzantine Catholic on staff who makes sure that anything we teach is amenable to our Eastern brethren and is truly Catholic.

:clap: :cloud9: :)

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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1. One does not become holier in purgatory. A better analogy might be that the gold we acquire is here on earth, but purgatory removes the dross.

But

2. You have a point I think others are insufficiently addressing. The relincta of sin, its remnants, are not all addressed by indulgences. An indulgence, as such, adds no merit (so no greater reward), strengthens no virtue, weakens no vice. It merely satisfies the temporal debt due to sin. The actions indulgences are attached to can address those others, but it is certainly the case the one can acquire a plenary indulgence, yet still have remnants of sin, namely having less merit, weaker hold of acquired virtue, bad habits.

3. Which raises, what is purgatory for? It is not for acquiring virtue not acquired, ending bad habits, or gaining merit. It is for satisfying justice. One who dies after a plenary indulgence goes immediately to heaven, and these other relicta are cured in heaven, or more properly (as moral habits are off the appetites and hence not habits of the separated soul) in the resurrection, just as all bodily defects are healed.

4. Nevertheless, the soul that must undergo retributive justice, is also healed of these relics of sin, whether here or in purgatory. And further, these relics have a certain claim on us when we have not satisfied the debt of justice

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