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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.

In (2) a soul in purgatory requires something indulgences do not give.
Yes, which is given by purgatory… I don't understand your objection. Indulgences help with some things but not with others. So what?

Because an indulgence should entirely replace purgatory if it is plenary

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:41 pm 
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quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:01 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


Whose the "we" you refer to? Am I part of the "we?" Are you Catholic?

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:16 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Sorry Doom... One last thing...

I would say that the requirement to be free from attachment to sin, otherwise the indulgence is partial, implies that something is indeed "leftover" to do in purgatory... namely personal perfection in holiness.

FJ


Come on, you aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Thomas Aquinas and the teaching of the universal Church that human beings CANNOT CHANGE after death.

Death is not an arbitrary threshold here, the reason why people cannot change after death is that change involves the actualization of potential, and for human beings, and indeed, for all created things, all realization of potential is guided towards God as its end and final purpose.

Once one is dead, one has either achieved this final purpose and become fully united with God, in which case, one never changes beyond that point because there is no more potential left to be realized, one has ALREADY ACHIEVED one's full potential and there is no potential left to be actualized, or, one has been permanently separated from God, in which case, one will NEVER achieve one's full potential, so, again, there is no more potential left to be actualized.


Thus, in either case, change after death is IMPOSSIBLE. This is not my argument, this is Thomas Aquinas' argument.

So, no, one does not and CANNOT 'become holier' in purgatory, because becoming holier involves an actualization of potential, but there is no potential left to be actualized.

You need to think again.

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Last edited by Doom on Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:18 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:

Because an indulgence should entirely replace purgatory if it is plenary


Ummmm...what is the basis for that claim?

You're just jumping from one completely baseless claim to another, this is not a sound form of argument.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Doom wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Sorry Doom... One last thing...

I would say that the requirement to be free from attachment to sin, otherwise the indulgence is partial, implies that something is indeed "leftover" to do in purgatory... namely personal perfection in holiness.

FJ


Come on, you aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Thomas Aquinas and the teaching of the universal Church that human beings CANNOT CHANGE after death.

Death is not an arbitrary threshold here, the reason why people cannot change after death is that change involves the actualization of potential, and for human beings, and indeed, for all created things, all realization of potential is guided towards God as its end and final purpose.

Once one is dead, one has either achieved this final purpose and become fully united with God, in which case, one never changes beyond that point because there is no more potential left to be realized, one has ALREADY ACHIEVED one's full potential and there is no potential left to be actualized, or, one has been permanently separated from God, in which case, one will NEVER achieve one's full potential, so, again, there is no more potential left to be actualized.


Thus, in either case, change after death is IMPOSSIBLE. This is not my argument, this is Thomas Aquinas' argument.

So, no, one does not and CANNOT 'become holier' in purgatory, because becoming holier involves an actualization of potential, but there is no potential left to be actualized.

You need to think again.


I don't think you understood my recurring joke... I was apologizing because you hate it when I post several posts in a row instead of using the edit function. I don't think I have disagreed with you at all. I will often open a post with "sorry doom, one more thing" when I have decided to add to my post by making subsequent posts. Sorry for the confusion.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


The titles "King" and "Judge" for Christ are not absent in Eastern thought. Surely, it is not wrong to consider sin and punishment within the paradigm of justice, given that justice is a virtue and the Bible says that God is just. I concede that you may have heard justice exaggerated and distorted, but you are overreacting if you ignore justice altogether.

Community service, for example, is both retributive and transformative.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:53 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


Whose the "we" you refer to? Am I part of the "we?" Are you Catholic?

FJ


I am Orthodox in Communion with Rome. No, not Roman Catholic.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:57 am 
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Doom wrote:

Come on, you aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Thomas Aquinas and the teaching of the universal Church that human beings CANNOT CHANGE after death.

Death is not an arbitrary threshold here, the reason why people cannot change after death is that change involves the actualization of potential, and for human beings, and indeed, for all created things, all realization of potential is guided towards God as its end and final purpose.

Once one is dead, one has either achieved this final purpose and become fully united with God, in which case, one never changes beyond that point because there is no more potential left to be realized, one has ALREADY ACHIEVED one's full potential and there is no potential left to be actualized, or, one has been permanently separated from God, in which case, one will NEVER achieve one's full potential, so, again, there is no more potential left to be actualized.


Thus, in either case, change after death is IMPOSSIBLE. This is not my argument, this is Thomas Aquinas' argument.

So, no, one does not and CANNOT 'become holier' in purgatory, because becoming holier involves an actualization of potential, but there is no potential left to be actualized.

You need to think again.


Something's wrong with this argument, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on it. Let me try.

Purgatory, as I understand it, is for the removal of sin to which we cling after death? Right or wrong?

If then, purgation burns away all that is not like Christ, do we not then increase in Christ-likeness, which is holiness? Right or Wrong?

Do I have a wrong understanding of the Roman Catholic concept of the afterlife?


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:04 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


Whose the "we" you refer to? Am I part of the "we?" Are you Catholic?

FJ


I am Orthodox in Communion with Rome. No, not Roman Catholic.


What does in communion mean? It says in your profile that you are Catholic. I didn't say anything about Roman.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:43 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


Whose the "we" you refer to? Am I part of the "we?" Are you Catholic?

FJ


I am Orthodox in Communion with Rome. No, not Roman Catholic.


What does in communion mean? It says in your profile that you are Catholic. I didn't say anything about Roman.

FJ


It means we get spit on by the Orthodox, who think we are heretics for being in communion with Rome, and it means we get spit on by the Roman Catholics because we don't accept all that they teach as dogma.

It's a strange place to be theologically.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:52 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
What does in communion mean? It says in your profile that you are Catholic. I didn't say anything about Roman.


Okay. now that I've given you my smarmy answer, let me see if I can give a better one.

When most people hear the word "catholic" then think of the Church of Rome. They have no idea that there are 23 other distinct sui juris rites which are "in communion" with Rome. For instance, the Melkite Church and the Maronite Church, which never broke communion after the sad schism of 1054 AD.

In the view of the World Council of Churches, an inter-church organization that includes "most of the world's Orthodox churches, scores of Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist and Reformed churches, as well as many United and Independent churches", "the goal of the search for full communion is realized when all the churches are able to recognize in one another the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church in its fullness", a communion "given and expressed in the common confession of the apostolic faith; a common sacramental life entered by the one baptism and celebrated together in one eucharistic fellowship; a common life in which members and ministries are mutually recognized and reconciled; and a common mission witnessing to all people to the gospel of God's grace and serving the whole of creation".

The part in bold above is where it gets sticky. The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges the Orthodox Church as part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church established by Christ by means of valid Sacraments and apostolic succession. The Orthodox, however, do not return the favor. They state that the acceptance of heresies by the Roman Catholic Church, of novel theological ideas such as the Immaculate Conception and Indulgences, took the Roman Church out of the Church and they are no longer the Church.

Because those of us who are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" are willing to recognize the Roman Church as apostolic and catholic, part of the Church, we are also told by the Orthodox that we are no longer part of the Church. As I said, we get spit on by both sides.

So "in communion"simply means a recognition of apostolicity and unity between the two.

Hope that in some way helps.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:23 am 
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That seems a hair disingenuous to me. By that argument, most Baptists would claim to be--and in fact would be--Catholic and even "in communion with Rome"! Granted that there are those Baptists who think that all Catholics are going to hell, the much more common claim is for them to shrug their shoulders, mark their disagreements with a plethora of Roman Catholic doctrines, and then say, "But in the end, all that matters is that you have Jesus." So in exactly that sense, they see the Roman Catholic church as still being "in the Church" that Christ founded.

And yet, would anyone here--or really anyone in general--recognize the claim as honest in any meaningful sense if they talked about how they were Catholic in communion with Rome? I mean . . . come on.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:56 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="ForeverFaithful"

I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

This is very much inline with Orthodox thinking on the idea of Purgatory (which we reject). The cleansing fire is the love of Christ/God. Meeting Him is to meet absolute truth, in which all the dear lies we hold to about ourselves, the disordered passions we suffer from, and all else that is not like Him, is burned away by union with Him. The good metaphor for this is the steel being tempered by fire - impurities are burned out of it, it becomes pure, and it eventually takes on the characteristics of the fire without becoming the fire itself.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

Of course you are because they aren't the same thing. One is to punish, the other is to heal

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

Eastern soteriology and eschatology doesn't deal in legal retributions. I can understand, however, why you are so confused by this.


Whose the "we" you refer to? Am I part of the "we?" Are you Catholic?

FJ


I am Orthodox in Communion with Rome. No, not Roman Catholic.


What does in communion mean? It says in your profile that you are Catholic. I didn't say anything about Roman.

FJ


It means we get spit on by the Orthodox, who think we are heretics for being in communion with Rome, and it means we get spit on by the Roman Catholics because we don't accept all that they teach as dogma.

It's a strange place to be theologically.


I haven't spit at anyone, so perhaps you shouldn't generalize and pretend you are a victim everytime a discussion like this comes up.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:16 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
I haven't spit at anyone, so perhaps you shouldn't generalize and pretend you are a victim every time a discussion like this comes up.


I was using a little hyperbole. Apparently I am not allowed that luxury, eh?

The fact of the matter is that I have already caught some significant heat on this board from disagreeing with certain RC dogmatic statements. Perhaps you weren't privy to that thread.

And over on the Orthodox board, I do get some heat also for still being "in communion with Rome" while identifying myself as Orthodox.

My only response to either side is this from our Patriarch of the UCC:

Quote:
Our Church has been singled out by the Kremlin’s propaganda machine as some sort of ultranationalist force bent on sowing hatred towards the Orthodox culture of Russia, and the single greatest impediment to worldwide Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.

That is why I find it important to be able to stand before you today at this great university and state the following in the most unequivocal terms. The Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church, the largest of the Eastern Catholic Churches is not in any way opposed to the Orthodox Churches. We are an Orthodox Church, with Orthodox theology, liturgy, spirituality and canonical tradition that chooses to manifest this Orthodoxy in the spirit of the first Christian millennium, in communion with Rome. We are witnesses to the fact that Christian East and West not only have an obligation to seek some vague rapprochement, but are called by our Savior Himself to actually live the unity of one Body of Christ, not in the subjugation of one to another, but in the loving union of the Three Divine Persons who live not three lives parallel to each other, but one life: a life of self-emptying love, that gives life rather than take it. It is our mission, as a Church that experienced great persecution and martyrdom in the twentieth century, to stand up for those who experience such persecution today: our brothers and sisters the Copts of Egypt, the Melkites, Chaldeans, Syrian Orthodox, Assyrians, and others in the Middle East. It is our duty to help them tell their stories in this, one of the most respected forums of the world.


Yeah......and they will know we are Christians by our love for one another.

What is going on between Russia and Constantinople is a tragedy of monumental proportions.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
What does in communion mean? It says in your profile that you are Catholic. I didn't say anything about Roman.


Okay. now that I've given you my smarmy answer, let me see if I can give a better one.

When most people hear the word "catholic" then think of the Church of Rome. They have no idea that there are 23 other distinct sui juris rites which are "in communion" with Rome. For instance, the Melkite Church and the Maronite Church, which never broke communion after the sad schism of 1054 AD.

In the view of the World Council of Churches, an inter-church organization that includes "most of the world's Orthodox churches, scores of Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist and Reformed churches, as well as many United and Independent churches", "the goal of the search for full communion is realized when all the churches are able to recognize in one another the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church in its fullness", a communion "given and expressed in the common confession of the apostolic faith; a common sacramental life entered by the one baptism and celebrated together in one eucharistic fellowship; a common life in which members and ministries are mutually recognized and reconciled; and a common mission witnessing to all people to the gospel of God's grace and serving the whole of creation".

The part in bold above is where it gets sticky. The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges the Orthodox Church as part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church established by Christ by means of valid Sacraments and apostolic succession. The Orthodox, however, do not return the favor. They state that the acceptance of heresies by the Roman Catholic Church, of novel theological ideas such as the Immaculate Conception and Indulgences, took the Roman Church out of the Church and they are no longer the Church.

Because those of us who are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" are willing to recognize the Roman Church as apostolic and catholic, part of the Church, we are also told by the Orthodox that we are no longer part of the Church. As I said, we get spit on by both sides.

So "in communion"simply means a recognition of apostolicity and unity between the two.

Hope that in some way helps.


So, I just discussed this with a Byzantine Catholic friend of mine. He read your post. And he basically said that you are flirting with cafeteria Catholicism. As a Catholic, whether Eastern or Western or whatever, we must accept the dogmas of the Church. This does not mean we have to accept any subsequent speculation or development that may differ among the rites, but the basic teaching must be accepted or one is in heresy. Bottom line. That is the Uniate agreement. One must accept the bare minimum dogmatic teaching on purgatory, but leave open the theological speculation about suffering, for instance. But, one cannot deny purgatory itself without heresy. And he said that if one asks Byzantine Bishops, this is exactly what they would say. It doesn't even mean that you have to think about purgatory as an Eastern since it isn't part of your tradition to dwell upon it. But, as a reality taught by the UNIVERSAL Church... it's real. Bottom line.

There are four creedal marks. Being Apostolic is only one of those. Being One is another. And this oneness is not just that we give communion to one another, but that we are in communion of faith, taught definitively by the Church, with the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. Different liturgical traditions, theological speculations, theological approaches, etc do not divide the one, but reveal its more splendid brilliance. But, differing in faith would.

That's what he had to say. How would you respond? I agree with him, and with TheJack's suggestion that your position seems untenable and cannot possibly be what is meant by One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

ETA - If anyone is curious, afaik, the only dogmatic (binding) statement on purgatory is this... "The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory." Reflections on how purgatory works, etc, even as to whether it is painful or joyful, are not binding.

FJ

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Last edited by forumjunkie on Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:01 pm 
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I have thought what f/j is thinking for some time, minus the Byzantine Catholic friend to ask about it. (I know Maronites, but they wouldn't have a dog in this particular hunt.)

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:27 pm 
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I really do wonder how Ed would respond if I changed my religion to Catholic on the grounds that I, personally, am "willing to recognize the Roman Church as apostolic and catholic, part of the Church." I could point to "novel theological ideas such as the Immaculate Conception and Indulgences" even while denying those novelties "took the Roman Church out of the Church and they are no longer the Church."

So by his argument, I'm just as Catholic as he is -- just in communion with Rome as he is. I just think a few doctrines are novelties that he doesn't. But since we aren't required to accept all that the Church teaches in order to be Catholic, well, I may as well change my affiliation on my profile, right?

------------

for clarity, I'm not going to, and I wouldn't, because I think that would be terribly dishonest and disrespectful. I just don't see how anyone who hold's Ed's position could possibly object to such a move. And if he doesn't, I think that points to a real weakness in his use of the word and claim to be "catholic."

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:37 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:


So, I just discussed this with a Byzantine Catholic friend of mine. He read your post. And he basically said that you are flirting with cafeteria Catholicism.

**I probably should have just walked away and never got this started.**

In the 20th century in America, the Byzantine Catholic Church suffered from a rather high degree of intrusion and overreach from the Latin Church. The married priesthood was denied us by fiat of Rome and many churches and people gradually slipped into latinizations which would not have been recognized by the first settlers from the Ural Mountain regions of Eastern Europe. I remember going into a Byzantine church in Pittsburg about 15 years ago. The Rosary was playing on loudspeakers before the Divine Liturgy. Tragically, you could see the holes in the floor in front of the altar where someone had previously torn out the Iconostasis. In the parish where I serve now, when I walked in there were Stations of the Cross on the walls instead of icons. Our prayer books had the filioque clause in the Creed, which have since been scratched out.

What I am saying is that your friend has grown up latinized and has no understanding of the true Eastern Catholic teaching and tradition.


As a Catholic, whether Eastern or Western or whatever, we must accept the dogmas of the Church.

This sentence presupposes that the Roman Church = the Catholic Church.

This does not mean we have to accept any subsequent speculation or development that may differ among the rites, but the basic teaching must be accepted or one is in heresy.

Subsequent teaching? You mean like the self-aggrandizing dogma of Papal Infallibility? Never known to the Early Fathers of the Church. They saw the Bishop of Rome as a symbol of unity and the final court of appeal in ecclesiastical matters. Honor and primacy was give to him as the "First Among Equals" but dogmatic pronunciations belong to the Church and not to a single man. It is the Church, meeting in ecumenical councils, that has brought forth the truths which we are bound to believe, such as the deity of Christ and the declarations on His natures.

Bottom line. That is the Uniate agreement. One must accept the bare minimum dogmatic teaching on purgatory, but leave open the theological speculation about suffering, for instance. But, one cannot deny purgatory itself without heresy. And he said that if one asks Byzantine Bishops, this is exactly what they would say.

Just to be sure I am speaking from a position in concordance with the teaching of the UCC, I just called the Archeparchy of Philadelphia and spoke to Fr. Fields there. He seemed to really enjoy discussing theology with me. The bottom line is that we do not accept Purgatory. Period. End of discussion. Nor Indulgences. Period. End of discussion. Neither of these two dogmas are to be found in our catechism, CHRIST, OUR PASCHA. Therefore, I would guess that according to your statement, the whole of the UCC is heretical. We don't buy it.

It doesn't even mean that you have to think about purgatory as an Eastern since it isn't part of your tradition to dwell upon it. But, as a reality taught by the UNIVERSAL Church... it's real. Bottom line.

We (the UCC) beg to differ. And I know that the Melkites don't go there either inasmuch as my spiritual director is a Melkite seminarian, soon-to-be-priest

There are four creedal marks. Being Apostolic is only one of those. Being One is another. And this oneness is not just that we give communion to one another, but that we are in communion of faith, taught definitively by the Church, with the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.

Interesting. I just read in the catechism that each bishop is a Vicar of Christ. Will probably study that more to get into it.

Different liturgical traditions, theological speculations, theological approaches, etc do not divide the one, but reveal its more splendid brilliance. But, differing in faith would.

That's what he had to say. How would you respond? I agree with him, and with TheJack's suggestion that your position seems untenable and cannot possibly be what is meant by One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

My response above. I will further go into this with my spiritual director the next time we meet, but just from the Catechism of the UCC, it is clear that we are NOT on the same page. As for TheJack, I find myself agreeing with him - it is a strange dance to try to be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. For the last 140 years in America, we have been treated more like "Rome Light with Funny Liturgy."

ETA - If anyone is curious, afaik, the only dogmatic (binding) statement on purgatory is this... "The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory." Reflections on how purgatory works, etc, even as to whether it is painful or joyful, are not binding.

Another difference. You see Purgatory as punishment for sins (your quote above) Orthodoxy does not see it this way at all, but rather a process of remedial curing of the soul.

FJ


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:50 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I really do wonder how Ed would respond if I changed my religion to Catholic on the grounds that I, personally, am "willing to recognize the Roman Church as apostolic and catholic, part of the Church." I could point to "novel theological ideas such as the Immaculate Conception and Indulgences" even while denying those novelties "took the Roman Church out of the Church and they are no longer the Church."

So by his argument, I'm just as Catholic as he is -- just in communion with Rome as he is. I just think a few doctrines are novelties that he doesn't. But since we aren't required to accept all that the Church teaches in order to be Catholic, well, I may as well change my affiliation on my profile, right?

------------

for clarity, I'm not going to, and I wouldn't, because I think that would be terribly dishonest and disrespectful. I just don't see how anyone who hold's Ed's position could possibly object to such a move. And if he doesn't, I think that points to a real weakness in his use of the word and claim to be "catholic."


The Church is the Body of Christ.

Where is the Body of Christ found?

It is not some "invisible Church" as the Reformers dreamed up after an all-night attack on a distillery.

The Body of Christ is found on the altar of any congregation (parish) which has a validly consecrated Eucharist. The Eucharist is the Body of Christ (I don't even know why I am going here since you don't believe this)

Hence, any congregation which has the Eucharist is part of the Body of Christ, which is the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

You can make all the fancy-schmancy theological and intellectual constructs you wish to make. If you are not associated with a congregation that has the Eucharist, then you are not in the Church nor the Body of Christ, no matter what you say. Does this mean that God has not had mercy on you, or that He will not in the future? That is between you and He, but you are not in the Church and I do not apologize for telling you what the Scripture says about this.

IMO - The Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church can fling verbal stones at each other until the Second Coming, but unless either body can disprove the apostolic succession of the other, then both are still the Church, no matter what they say. Only if one or the other side is clearly presented as having severed that apostolic succession can it be said that they are out of the Church.

And as for the word "katholicos" (catholic) I do wish people would realize that it means "of the fullness" or "of the whole" not ROMAN!!!!


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