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 Post subject: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:49 am 
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So Purgatory has been explained to me two ways

1. Purgatory is a post-mortem period of punishment which satisfies the debts of venial sins committed in this life.
2. Purgatory is post-mortem suffering which perfects the soul.

In the case of (2) it seems that Purgatory is primarily addressing the internal disorder caused by sin, but in the case of (1) it would appear that Purgatory is primarily addressing the external debt of sin.

(1) and (2) are not mutually exclusive per se, but if (2) is the case I do not understand how indulgences work.

Indulgences satisfy a debt, but do not make one internally holy correct? So how would an indulgence help a soul in purgatory if the sufferings are directed towards internal disorders?

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:04 pm 
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I don't understand the question

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Doom wrote:
I don't understand the question


Under (1)

I commit venial sins A, B, and C. I go to Purgatory, there I am given a punishment corresponding to the debt due to A, B, and C. And indulgence allows me to pay part of that debt.

Under (2)
I commit venial sins A, B, and C. Because of said sins, I am less holy than I should be. I go to purgatory and am punished until I am as holy as I should be.

But indulgences do not make one holy, so how would an indulgence help me if Purgatory is like (2)

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Who says that indulgences don't make one holy? Where's your citation for that assertion?

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Who says that indulgences don't make one holy? Where's your citation for that assertion?


The Church has authority over indulgences, not over making people holy. Ergo indulgences do not make people holy.

CCC 1471 defines indulgences simply as the remission of temporal punishment as they would operate under (1)

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:03 pm 
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I understand what you're asking but not sure of the answer, so take this for what it's worth.

Going by memory of what I've read, purgatory is about retributive justice - paying off the temporal punishment due to sin. It doesn't make one holier, as that can only happen in this life. Once one dies, the time for spiritual growth is over (no more ability to merit, or grow in sanctifying grace). Your level of holiness is set so to speak.

I know a lot of people explain purgatory with the metaphor of being dirty and having that dirty scrubbed off before one gets to heaven, but I'm not sure if that literally means one is growing in holiness in the after life.


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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:22 pm 
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DominiCanis wrote:
I know a lot of people explain purgatory with the metaphor of being dirty and having that dirty scrubbed off before one gets to heaven, but I'm not sure if that literally means one is growing in holiness in the after life.


There was a quote from the priest last night at mass from Pope Benedict XVI suggesting it was the necessary punishments to become the images of God.

Otherwise I see it as largely retributive because that seems to be entailed by the doctrine of indulgences

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:10 pm 
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I would definitely tend to hold the "both/and" view.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:26 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
I would definitely tend to hold the "both/and" view.


In which case, purgatory would involve some punishments not remitted by indulgences.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:28 pm 
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Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.


:iws

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.

In (2) a soul in purgatory requires something indulgences do not give.

It would seem to entail one can die in grace and with a plenary indulgence and still have to suffer to become holier.

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:58 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.

In (2) a soul in purgatory requires something indulgences do not give.

It would seem to entail one can die in grace and with a plenary indulgence and still have to suffer to become holier.


It has already been explained that one CANNOT 'become holier' after death, either on purgatory or in any other way. So no, one does not have to suffer in purgatory 'to become holier' one cannot achieve that which is ontologically impossible in purgatory.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Doom wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.

In (2) a soul in purgatory requires something indulgences do not give.

It would seem to entail one can die in grace and with a plenary indulgence and still have to suffer to become holier.


It has already been explained that one CANNOT 'become holier' after death, either on purgatory or in any other way. So no, one does not have to suffer in purgatory 'to become holier' one cannot achieve that which is ontologically impossible in purgatory.


So (2) is again disqualified.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:04 pm 
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They are two ways of looking at the same process. You're introducing a mistaken distinction.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:14 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They are two ways of looking at the same process. You're introducing a mistaken distinction.


I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi
47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:06 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They are two ways of looking at the same process. You're introducing a mistaken distinction.


I think I found what my priest was quoting from:

Spes Salvi
47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

I guess I have trouble seeing how a retributive penalty is transformative. There's some nuance I am missing.

A retributive penalty is a payment of debt, a transformation is an internal process, are those not really distinct?


But, indulgences are gained by doing things which lead to perfection in holiness. It's not just community service where you are in a tit for tat paying of debt, but also participating in the life of the Church toward holy living and praying. So, I would say that indulgences do address the both/and. This is where the "attachment to sin" part of the procedure comes in. A plenary indulgence is more difficult than people think, because there is a call to holiness in its success that accomplishes what purgatory will... and that is dying to self to detach from sin.

So, I see the discipline of gaining indulgences as serving both aspects of the purgatorial experience. There is the punitive "community service" aspect that addresses "time served," but also the specific holy acts and call to detach from sin as addressing the perfection of the soul.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:31 am 
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Not to mention that a person needs to put himself in a state of grace by confessing his sins, making an act of contrition, uniting himself with the Lord in the reception of Eucharist, and prayer for another (the Holy Father). I would say that there is much in the idea of indulgences that has the both/and in it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:02 am 
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Sorry Doom... One last thing...

I would say that the requirement to be free from attachment to sin, otherwise the indulgence is partial, implies that something is indeed "left over" to do in purgatory... namely personal perfection in holiness.

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 Post subject: Re: The Purpose of Purgatory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:56 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Why? Both/and means the theories apply together, not some of each.

In (2) a soul in purgatory requires something indulgences do not give.
Yes, which is given by purgatory… I don't understand your objection. Indulgences help with some things but not with others. So what?

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