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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:56 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
So pretty much the "double lite" absolves God of any "wrongdoing", but most of humanity is still screwed from birth...


No, the Church takes no position whatever on whether the number who are to be saved is to be great or small and discourages speculation on the question. The closest the Church has ever come to taking a position on the question was during the reign of Pius XII when, on the same day, the Holy Office issued a condemnation of one book arguing that most people are saved and condemned another book arguing that most people are condemned.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Allow me to rephrase, So pretty much the "double lite" absolves God of any "wrongdoing", but those who will be damned are still screwed from birth...?

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:49 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Then why don't we just admit the truth concerning such things, aren't we really just trying to unscroot the unscrootable?

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Allow me to rephrase, So pretty much the "double lite" absolves God of any "wrongdoing", but those who will be damned are still screwed from birth...?



I'll give you credit for one thing: you are gifted at coming up with strawmen. I didn't say anything like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Then why don't we just admit the truth concerning such things, aren't we really just trying to unscroot the inscrutable?


I don't know what you mean, the Church's teaching on predestination is hardly a secret.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Then why don't we just admit the truth concerning such things, aren't we really just trying to unscroot the inscrutable?


I don't know what you mean, the Church's teaching on predestination is hardly a secret.


On how it all pans out.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:

On how it all pans out.


There are questions that human beings are not capable of answering. No one can explain how to reconcile human free will and divine omnipotence anymore than one can completely explain the Trinity. We can answer negative questions 'no it is not like that' but we can't really understand what it is like.

But the Church can do little more than provide general guidelines, we know that God predestines no one to Hell and that anyone who goes to Hell has no one but himself to blame. We don't know how it works, but we do know these kinds of basic principles, and theologians are free to speculate on how it might work provided they stay within the general guidelines, and within those general guidelines there is a wide diversity of opinion, from the strong predestinarian views of Augustine and Aquinas to the Molinist position which is much weaker.


Most of the really important questions in theology, philosophy, and science are probably unanswerable.

Look at light, some experiments seem to show that light is a wave, other experiments seem to show that light is a particle. Somehow, in a way that no human being can comprehend, light is simultaneously both a wave and a particle. How can that possibly be? No one really knows, we only know that it is so. We can say with certainty what light is NOT, but even the greatest scientists in the world can not say what light IS and can do little more than shrug their shoulders and say 'I don't really get it myself, but it is the truth, and the truth is just what it simply is.'

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:30 am 
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theJack wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
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The idea that God predestined 1) certain individuals to be elected unto salvation and 2) certain individuals to be elected unto damnation.

dumbest heresy ever

It is far from dumb, much less the dumbest ever. It is a very short and easy step f dry on Augustine's views to double predestination, so much so that it had to be explicitly addressed in the 5th century. Not being stupid doesn't make it right, of course. But it is a sincere attempt to take seriously the sovereignty and impassibility of God. In fact, it takes a good bit of very wise and careful examination to avoid the heresy in question.

well, not sure I understand that last line but in any case

the saints say most people go to hell, even most christians (St Leonard, St Jerome, and others). I forgot what point I was trying to make--got side-tracked thinking about that awful supposed truth..

If you are to believe the saints on how few make it to heaven, I guess most of us, according to the predestination folks, are predestined to Hell.. God made most of us to go to Hell

But of course we know that God is not willing that any perish. Humans send themselves to hell because they refuse to do what Jesus commanded, would rather do their own thing


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:33 am 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:

On how it all pans out.


There are questions that human beings are not capable of answering. No one can explain how to reconcile human free will and divine omnipotence anymore than one can completely explain the Trinity. We can answer negative questions 'no it is not like that' but we can't really understand what it is like.

But the Church can do little more than provide general guidelines, we know that God predestines no one to Hell and that anyone who goes to Hell has no one but himself to blame. We don't know how it works, but we do know these kinds of basic principles, and theologians are free to speculate on how it might work provided they stay within the general guidelines, and within those general guidelines there is a wide diversity of opinion, from the strong predestinarian views of Augustine and Aquinas to the Molinist position which is much weaker.


Most of the really important questions in theology, philosophy, and science are probably unanswerable.

Look at light, some experiments seem to show that light is a wave, other experiments seem to show that light is a particle. Somehow, in a way that no human being can comprehend, light is simultaneously both a wave and a particle. How can that possibly be? No one really knows, we only know that it is so. We can say with certainty what light is NOT, but even the greatest scientists in the world can not say what light IS and can do little more than shrug their shoulders and say 'I don't really get it myself, but it is the truth, and the truth is just what it simply is.'


then there is the bumblebee that is not supposed to fly but it does


:|


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:50 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
[
then there is the bumblebee that is not supposed to fly but it does


:|


That's an urban legend

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:10 pm 
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I'm pretty sure it flies.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm pretty sure it flies.


Smartass. That nobody can explain how a bumblebee is able to fly is an urban legend. Bumblebee flight is completely understood and has been for more than a century.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm pretty sure it flies.


Smartass. That nobody can explain how a bumblebee is able to fly is an urban legend. Bumblebee flight is completely understood and has been for more than a century.


They fly like helicopters.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:35 pm 
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GKC wrote:

They fly like helicopters.


Essentially

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:14 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
If you are to believe the saints on how few make it to heaven, I guess most of us, according to the predestination folks, are predestined to Hell.. God made most of us to go to Hell

I hope you don't mind me picking on your language a little bit, but I think this is important. I think what you mean here is that according to the predestination folk, God made most of us knowing that we would end up in Hell. There are two distinct ideas (well, a lot more, but two directly relevant ones I notice) that should be clearly stated:

1. God knows the final destination of every human as a consequence of His omniscience; that is, to deny that God knows the final condition of every human would be to deny His omniscience and thus deity;
2. God chose to make people anyway even knowing that they would end up in Hell.

I think the real problem people have is with that second proposition. Some try to weasel out of it by denying the first, but that just isn't a realistic proposition. So what does it mean that God made someone even though He knew that they would go to Hell? One view is the double predestination view, that God made them "to go to Hell," where "to go to" means "in order to." But that is wrong. God did not make any person, much less most people, in order that that might go to Hell. So "to go to" must mean what I suggested earlier; that He chose to make them even though He knew where they would end up.

So the question becomes, how do we cope with the fact that God decided it was worth making people that would suffer for all eternity? I personally think the "a few, some, many, or most" debate--i.e., how many people actually do end up in Hell--is rather pointless. One person, two people, two thousand, two million, two billion? More? The question isn't whether it's okay for some people to suffer forever or if it's okay for most people to suffer forever. The question is about whether or not it is okay for people, in general, to suffer forever, and in what sense God can create that world and still be good.

In any case, there is a lot more that could be said in terms of answering that question. I won't try to say it all here. I'll only say that it's worth your reflection that God has, apparently, decided that it is good to create just such a world; and yes, it is a hard truth, but it's just that sort of truth that challenges us to see God at least a little bit more like He sees Himself that we are by nature inclined to see Him.

Quote:
But of course we know that God is not willing that any perish. Humans send themselves to hell because they refuse to do what Jesus commanded, would rather do their own thing

This is another bit of language I don't really like -- this notion of people sending themselves to Hell. Look, let's not try to get God off the hook here. As if God were powerless before our omnipotent choice, that God is begging for us to just let Him help us, as if He is unable to save us until we give Him permission. I know there is some real value in some of the imagery of sending ourselves to Hell, of the gates of Hell being locked from the inside, and so on. But the fact remains that God is the Judge. God is the one who destroys the soul in fire and therefore the One we should fear. God sends us there by His sovereign choice. Yes, we deserve it. But He doesn't condemn some who deserve it (i.e., those whom He saves). So while meriting Hell is part of what God is saying, it has to be more than that. Anyway, as before, much more could be said, but I think my point's been made for whatever it is or isn't worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:16 pm 
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I hadn't seen the two-point thing before, but it makes great sense. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I hadn't seen the two-point thing before, but it makes great sense. Thank you.

:cloud9:

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I hadn't seen the two-point thing before, but it makes great sense. Thank you.


I was thinking the same thing. It articulates very well a view that I've had for a long time now, but which I had never quite been able to crystallize.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm pretty sure it flies.


Smartass. That nobody can explain how a bumblebee is able to fly is an urban legend. Bumblebee flight is completely understood and has been for more than a century.


Well, at least since that tune was composed.

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