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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:19 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Do you really need any Greek Philosophy to know that God is omniscient?


I mean ... it's contrary to the Scriptures - but ultimately so is a denial of simplicity and all of these other things that some theologians try to deny because of their origins in Greek philosophy...


Advocates of open theology make a quite compelling argument that omniscience is not in the scriptures at all. I think that if we are, to be honest, we have to admit that a strict 'Bible only' approach isn't going to get us anywhere at best all we can ever get is a stalemate, just as a strict Bible only approach leads us to a stalemate on pretty much every other issue, including the Trinity.

A much better approach is to argue that it is simply impossible to find 'the simple Bible truth' or 'the plain meaning' of scripture because no such thing exists. And we should argue, as the Early Church did, that there is nothing wrong with Greek philosophy because the greatest of the Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle were given the grace of God and were able to perceive truths that were not apparent to their contemporaries. The Early Church called Plato and Aristotle 'Christians before Christ' and there is a great deal of truth to that claim.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:41 am 
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That's one of the most ridiculous things you've ever posted. I refer you instead to No One Like Him by Feinberg, esp chp 4, which deals explicitly with process theology and pp 269-290, which deal explicitly with omniscience (with some specific reference to the problems offered by process theology).

Please dont mislead people, Doom.

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"Things tend, in fact, to go wrong; part of the blame lies on the teachers of philosophy, who today teach us how to argue instead of how to live, part on their students, who come to the teachers in the first place with a view to developing not their character but their intellect. The result has been the transformation of philosophy, the study of wisdom, into philology, the study of words." - Lucius Seneca, Letters from a Stoic.


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:43 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That what gets us into Heaven is the grace given to us by Jesus Christ, and what sends us to Hell is rejecting it--not any deed in and of itself, but what a deed does to our relationship to Christ.

But rejecting the grace that gets us into heaven doesn't mean that you deserve eternal punishment.
Yes, it does. Just like rejecting the hand that wants to lift you up from the sea mean that you deserve to drown.

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:22 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That what gets us into Heaven is the grace given to us by Jesus Christ, and what sends us to Hell is rejecting it--not any deed in and of itself, but what a deed does to our relationship to Christ.

But rejecting the grace that gets us into heaven doesn't mean that you deserve eternal punishment.
Yes, it does. Just like rejecting the hand that wants to lift you up from the sea mean that you deserve to drown.

According to your way of thinking, if a young woman who can't swim deliberately tries to commit suicide by jumping into the sea, and tells strong swimmers who try to save her that she doesn't want to be saved, therefore the strong swimmers should let her drown because she deserves to drown. And God would approve of that, would He?


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:13 am 
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If everyone deserves eternal punishment, then how could rejecting the grace that gets us into heaven mean that you deserve eternal punishment, if you already deserve eternal punishment whether you accept the grace or not?

So rejecting the grace that gets us into heaven cannot mean that you deserve eternal punishment.

When I look at my beautiful one-year-old daughter, the idea that she deserves to "suffer forever" is absurd. What could she possibly have done to deserve to suffer forever?


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:17 pm 
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God created Man and gave him two possible destinies (let's set aside the question of the edge cases that led to the concept of Limbo): Heaven with God eternally, or Hell without Him eternally. God then established what it takes to achieve Heaven: friendship with Him. God willed (edge cases aside) to offer sufficient grace to everyone to achieve the first option if they so chose. Where is the unfairness?

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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God created Man and gave him two possible destinies (let's set aside the question of the edge cases that led to the concept of Limbo): Heaven with God eternally, or Hell without Him eternally. God then established what it takes to achieve Heaven: friendship with Him. God willed (edge cases aside) to offer sufficient grace to everyone to achieve the first option if they so chose. Where is the unfairness?

If my sister, whom I love, refused to become a Christian and chose to be an atheist instead, and otherwise lived a morally good life, and she remained an atheist all her adult life, suppose then after three score years and ten, on her 70th birthday, I said to her "I'll give you one more chance, I'll give you one more whole year to become a Christian before it's too late" but she continued throughout that entire year to refuse to believe in Christ, or God, would it be fair if I therefore tortured her for the rest of her life, let's say she lived for 20 more years and I tortured her and caused her to suffer every day for the last 20 years of her life because she refused to accept Jesus, would that be fair to her? Obviously it would be unlawful and unwise for me to do that, but would it be fair to her? Why would it not be fair to her?


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 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:30 pm 
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That has nothing at all to do with what I said. It's sophistry.

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