Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 7 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:50 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4870
Religion: Catholic
I’m willing to accept the argument that Calvin didn’t believe in double predestination. That said, why did/do so many people of his day and afterward think that he did?

_________________
http://www.popinainteasy.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:52 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1548
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
HalJordan wrote:
I’m willing to accept the argument that Calvin didn’t believe in double predestination. That said, why did/do so many people of his day and afterward think that he did?


Because they believe in it, and it's better to say "John Calvin believed it" than I made it up.

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:46 am 
Online
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8317
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
John Calvin discusses it in The Institutes, Book 3, Chapters 21-24. It’s been a long time since I read this section and I don’t have ready access to my copy right now, but I’m pretty sure that your answer is in those chapters.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.html

_________________
Formerly: Greg.

- I try to have a little something for everybody in my posts. If you notice a spelling, grammar, or punctuation error... well... I put that in for you.

- I remember a lot of things. (Some of which actually happened.)

- Even the best of men may be born in times unsuited to their virtues.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:58 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4433
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Historically, the answer is that Theodore Beza who succeeded Calvin in Geneva held to double predestination and had a major impact on the development on what we call Calvinism.

_________________
Making Divine Simplicity Simple: Rediscovering Who and What God Is - an evangelical's (my!) attempt to explain Divine Simplicity in non-technical language
The Galatian Heresy (Gal 3:1-6) - An Argument for Sanctification by Faith Alone


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:31 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4870
Religion: Catholic
I was figuring there was a separate figure who made it the hip and happening thing to believe. That makes sense.

_________________
http://www.popinainteasy.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:14 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 75509
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Most people, even most educated people, don't even know what 'Calvinism' is, and tend to think that the sole, or at least, the most important, doctrine Calvin ever taught, was a strict theory of predestination, and when they say 'Calvinism;' 99% or more of people think that this is exactly what it means.

In point, predestination was not an important idea in Calvin's theology, he does address the issue, yes, but he doesn't put any more stress on it than did St. Thomas or Augustine before him. Calvin himself talked about predestination only because other people did and he was responding to them.

In point of actual fact, predestination did not really become an important issue during Calvin's lifetime, it was only a century later, during the Arminian controversy, that it became important.

Unfortunately, even knowledgeable historians and theologians have great difficulty discussing predestination, let alone the whole Arminian controversy without resorting to caricature, exaggeration and straw men.

I mean, how many people understand, I mean really understand, that so-called 'Calvinism' and so-called 'Arminianism' are NOT opposites, but that there are really only very minor differences between the two and that they are really just two minor variations on the same general idea? Arminius WAS a Calvinist, and he actually appealed to the writings of John Calvin to make his points. Arminius had no problem with Calvin, it was Calvin's strict, rigid interpreters in his own era, that he had an issue with.

So-called 'Arminians' would be better called ' 3point Calvinists' because they accept all of Calvin's system except for the doctrine of limited atonement and the preservation of the saints. They believe it is possible for one to lose one's salvation through sin or apostasy. But those two points were not really held by Calvin at all, but by his 17th-century interpreters.

There is also, I think, the very important that the very term 'Calvinism' is itself a misnomer. Calvin was not an innovator, he himself was already following in a tradition that was known as 'the Reformed Catholic Church' and later simply 'Reformed Church' or 'Reformed Christianity', that existed before him. Calvin was actually following the tradition set forth by Zwingli, and he himself was followed by others including Beza, Martin Bucer, John Knox, BB Warfield, J Gresham Machen, and in our own time by men like Cornelius Van Till, RC Sproul, JI Packer, Alvin Plantinga, and Loraine Boettner (now I know Boettner gets a lot of grief around here due to his poorly researched book 'Roman Catholicism' but even though he knew nothing about Catholicism, nevertheless, he WAS indeed an expert on Reformed theology). There are very, very, very few people who are 'Calvinists' in the sense that they care only about Calvin and no other theologian.

So the term 'Calvinism' is misleading, much better is 'Reformed theology', Calvin is a very influential voice, but he is far from the ONLY voice.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calvinism and Predestination
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:42 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4433
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
To the OP, in light of Doom's comments above, the difference in Calvinism and Reformed Theology has little to do with Calvin himself. The fact is there are a great many Calvinists who are very far from following Reformed Theology. (John MacArthur is one immediate and obvious example.)

"Calvinism," as the term is used today, refers to those people who adhere more or less to the five points of the TULIP.

Reformed Theology, also called Covenant Theology, refers to the broader tradition that certainly includes (more or less) the five points of Calvinism and might be understood as Evangelical Augustianism (I'm making that term up to communicate to you what the idea is). RT tends to hold to the three solas while also preserving a more Catholic eschatology (so it's amillennial) while usually holding to a more presbyterian styled ecclesiology.

These "extras" are why you can't equate Calvinism with RT, because there are more than a few dispensational Calvinists who would therefore be absolutely anything but Reformed.

_________________
Making Divine Simplicity Simple: Rediscovering Who and What God Is - an evangelical's (my!) attempt to explain Divine Simplicity in non-technical language
The Galatian Heresy (Gal 3:1-6) - An Argument for Sanctification by Faith Alone


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 7 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


Jump to: