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 Post subject: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:16 am 
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In both the Catholic Encylopedia and Ott, the dogma is formulated such that Catholics must hold "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as one principle"

So I was wondering

(1) Does this allow for a distinction between the Latin procedit and the Greek ἐκπορευόμενον. I have heard that the Greek term is more technical, so it may be that saying "Credo in Spritu Sancto, qui ex Partre Filioque procedit" does not entail the same kind of procession the Greek term does.

That is, in one sense the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, but in a stronger sense the Father alone. Is this a tolerable opinion.

(2) I have sometimes heard it said that it is within Catholic orthodoxy to say "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son" but does the phrase "as one principle" exclude this opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:00 am 
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https://archive.org/details/manualofcatholic01scheiala

pp. 294 and following

That's the best summary I know of, apart from some infelicities of phrasing with respect to the Orthodox.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:14 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
(2) I have sometimes heard it said that it is within Catholic orthodoxy to say "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son" but does the phrase "as one principle" exclude this opinion.

No, because one can hold (maybe even must hold) that the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son is the gift of the Father to the Son.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:04 am 
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I have read a post somewhere (many years ago) that the Orthodox could and would accept the phrase "through the Son." I think this would be a very accurate statement if you see the human family as an analogy of the Trinity in a covenant relationship.

The father and mother are united in love (The Father and the Son are united in love) and the child comes from the father throughthe mother (the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son).

One wonders just how much longer the Church is going to be separated by these discrepancies of speech?


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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:10 am 
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Until it is clear that they don't represent real divergence in doctrine. Words do have meanings.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:22 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Until it is clear that they don't represent real divergence in doctrine. Words do have meanings.


Agreed. But on this one issue, I think the phrase "through the Son" would make everyone happy.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:30 am 
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I defer to Fr Kenobi.

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Last edited by Jack3 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:24 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:35 am 
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I think you misread the Pregrinator's post. He is saying (as I read it) that "as one principle" does not exclude the "through" option.

I also think you're misreading LotE's post. He's using a bit of a colloquialism there in "make everyone happy." By that, he means that all parties involved would find it acceptable wording. I am not sure that he is correct, but he's not concentrating on making people happy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:13 pm 
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I think all parties can agree with "through the Son". Certainly the West can (St. Thomas explicit upholds that phrasing) and that phrasing is present verbatim in the Eastern Fathers. The problem, though, is that the dogma implies more than just the phrasing "through the Son" as St. Thomas also points out.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:18 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
I think all parties can agree with "through the Son". Certainly the West can (St. Thomas explicit upholds that phrasing) and that phrasing is present verbatim in the Eastern Fathers. The problem, though, is that the dogma implies more than just the phrasing "through the Son" as St. Thomas also points out.

Please go on

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Ott:

Quote:
The co-ordinating formula (filioque) and the subordinating formula (per filium) concur essentially, in so far as they both attest that both the Father and the Son are the Principle of the Holy Ghost and they complement each other. While the former the unicity and the indivisibly of the Principle are above all expressed, the latter effectively stresses that the Father is the Primitive Principle (cf. St Augustine, De Trin. XV 17,29 : de quo procedit principaliter), and that the Son as “God from God” is the Derived Principle, in so far as He, with His Essence, also receives the power of spiration from the Father. Cf. D 691.
p.64


So, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son + through the Son, but the primitive principle origin of Spiration is through the Father.

“Through the Son” alone can imply that procession does not also originate from the Son.

"Through the Son" is agreeable in of itself, but it does not solve the issue, and it leaves room for people to deny spiration from the Son.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:20 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
Ott:

Quote:
The co-ordinating formula (filioque) and the subordinating formula (per filium) concur essentially, in so far as they both attest that both the Father and the Son are the Principle of the Holy Ghost and they complement each other. While the former the unicity and the indivisibly of the Principle are above all expressed, the latter effectively stresses that the Father is the Primitive Principle (cf. St Augustine, De Trin. XV 17,29 : de quo procedit principaliter), and that the Son as “God from God” is the Derived Principle, in so far as He, with His Essence, also receives the power of spiration from the Father. Cf. D 691.
p.64


So, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son + through the Son, but the primitive principle origin of Spiration is through the Father.

“Through the Son” alone can imply that procession does not also originate from the Son.

"Through the Son" is agreeable in of itself, but it does not solve the issue, and it leaves room for people to deny spiration from the Son.


:iws

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
I have read a post somewhere (many years ago) that the Orthodox could and would accept the phrase "through the Son." I think this would be a very accurate statement if you see the human family as an analogy of the Trinity in a covenant relationship.

The father and mother are united in love (The Father and the Son are united in love) and the child comes from the father throughthe mother (the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son).

One wonders just how much longer the Church is going to be separated by these discrepancies of speech?



I have never seen a really compelling argument against the filioque, but I don't think there are all that many Orthodox who reject it in principle. What they object to is the fact that it was added to the creed unilaterally in the west without consulting with the east, even though the creed was written at ecumenical councils at which there were as many eastern bishops as western. And I think that this is generally the case with the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, they don't reject these ideas per se, they just don't like the way that they were defined. Granted, there are some radical, militantly anti-Catholic Orthodox who say that the filioque, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are all heresy on the principle that 'when Rome says X I always say 'not x', but I think they are rare outside the confines of the Internet.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:06 pm 
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For those who don't know, the reasons the filioque is critical both proceed (sorry/not sorry) from the doctrine that the only real distinctions between the Divine Persons are in their mutual relationships. If the Spirit cannot be said to proceed from the Son:

1) The Father is different from the Son not with respect to their relationship but with respect to taking part in the spiration of the Spirit;
2) There is no relation between the Son and the Spirit by which they may be distinguished.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
For those who don't know, the reasons the filioque is critical both proceed (sorry/not sorry) from the doctrine that the only real distinctions between the Divine Persons are in their mutual relationships. If the Spirit cannot be said to proceed from the Son:

1) The Father is different from the Son not with respect to their relationship but with respect to taking part in the spiration of the Spirit;
2) There is no relation between the Son and the Spirit by which they may be distinguished.

This is, of course, the primary argument for the filioque. It's been made repeatedly for centuries. How do EOs attempt to distinguish between the Persons? In other words, how have they tried to respond to this?

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:06 pm 
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I would be interested in hearing from someone who knows the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
I have read a post somewhere (many years ago) that the Orthodox could and would accept the phrase "through the Son." I think this would be a very accurate statement if you see the human family as an analogy of the Trinity in a covenant relationship.

The father and mother are united in love (The Father and the Son are united in love) and the child comes from the father throughthe mother (the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son).

One wonders just how much longer the Church is going to be separated by these discrepancies of speech?



I have never seen a really compelling argument against the filioque, but I don't think there are all that many Orthodox who reject it in principle. What they object to is the fact that it was added to the creed unilaterally in the west without consulting with the east, even though the creed was written at ecumenical councils at which there were as many eastern bishops as western. And I think that this is generally the case with the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, they don't reject these ideas per se, they just don't like the way that they were defined. Granted, there are some radical, militantly anti-Catholic Orthodox who say that the filioque, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are all heresy on the principle that 'when Rome says X I always say 'not x', but I think they are rare outside the confines of the Internet.

There is a Ruthenian Catholic who jokingly said, I am waiting for the Pope to proclaim the hypostatic union as dogma, then the monks at Mt Athos will condemn him for it. ::):

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:24 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
For those who don't know, the reasons the filioque is critical both proceed (sorry/not sorry) from the doctrine that the only real distinctions between the Divine Persons are in their mutual relationships. If the Spirit cannot be said to proceed from the Son:

1) The Father is different from the Son not with respect to their relationship but with respect to taking part in the spiration of the Spirit;
2) There is no relation between the Son and the Spirit by which they may be distinguished.

This is, of course, the primary argument for the filioque. It's been made repeatedly for centuries. How do EOs attempt to distinguish between the Persons? In other words, how have they tried to respond to this?


I don't know what the most erudite say, but an online Orthodox person has said that they are distinguished because "the Son is begotten while the Spirit is spirated".

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:37 pm 
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That doesn't establish a relationship between the Persons of the Son and the Spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dogma of Filioque
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
For those who don't know, the reasons the filioque is critical both proceed (sorry/not sorry) from the doctrine that the only real distinctions between the Divine Persons are in their mutual relationships. If the Spirit cannot be said to proceed from the Son:

1) The Father is different from the Son not with respect to their relationship but with respect to taking part in the spiration of the Spirit;
2) There is no relation between the Son and the Spirit by which they may be distinguished.

It perhaps is too much but is there anything you can tell or suggest for us who don't know the history of the filioque clause?

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