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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:28 am 
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Wolfguard wrote:
GKC wrote:
Wolfguard wrote:
Doom wrote:
Wolfguard wrote:
It is most definitely war. Either Francis, his fake priests, and pedo mafia need to go willingly, or they need to be forcibly removed. They cannot stay. There is literally no other way for the Church to move forward unless these frauds are expunged.


It is not possible to 'forcibly remove' a Pope, except, I suppose, by assassination, and I hope that is not what you are suggesting.

If that was what I was saying, you would not have to ask for clarification.

There are other ways, obviously. Such a person CANNOT lead the Church, nor should these fake priests be allowed to remain. Either priests and Catholics who are true to Christ's teachings need to pressure these individuals out, OR they must secede from them. That's it. You're either OK with terrible people leading or your not. You're either OK with what they are doing or you're not. There absolutely cannot be a middle ground here, otherwise the Church not only loses even MORE credibility, but also continues to enable these acts of evil.



Your logic sounds familiar.



Doom wrote:
GKC wrote:

Your logic sounds familiar.


Indeed, it sounds a lot like Martin Luther.

It's nothing of the sort. I'm not at all advocating changing Catholic teachings and traditions apart from distancing ourselves from evil men. And they are evil. What's better, continuing the same traditions away from them, or sitting on their sinking ship while the captain and his crew continue full speed into the iceberg? Ideally, THEY should leave since they are not at all representative of Christ. If they don't, then what's the point of being led by fakes? This is a "black and white" moment here. No grey area. Someone has to go one way or another.


Yep. Sounds familiar.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:06 am 
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Donatism?

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:44 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Donatism?


Not in my reference. Formally invalid minister.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:30 am 
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Sure, but what I think Wolfguard is really proposing is something an awful lot like Donatism. We can't align ourselves with the traditors. They're too awful. They're not worthy. It's an a pretty ancient heresy that Wolfguard has latched onto here, not something new and shiny.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:39 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Sure, but what I think Wolfguard is really proposing is something an awful lot like Donatism. We can't align ourselves with the traditors. They're too awful. They're not worthy. It's an a pretty ancient heresy that Wolfguard has latched onto here, not something new and shiny.


Yep.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:12 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Sure, but what I think Wolfguard is really proposing is something an awful lot like Donatism. We can't align ourselves with the traditors. They're too awful. They're not worthy. It's an a pretty ancient heresy that Wolfguard has latched onto here, not something new and shiny.


There is nothing new under the sun

Though I don't think Wolfguard is making the actual scramental case (I hope) for Donatism.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:32 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Sure, but what I think Wolfguard is really proposing is something an awful lot like Donatism. We can't align ourselves with the traditors. They're too awful. They're not worthy. It's an a pretty ancient heresy that Wolfguard has latched onto here, not something new and shiny.


There is nothing new under the sun

Though I don't think Wolfguard is making the actual scramental case (I hope) for Donatism.


I didn't read it as that. More wolfs instead of shepherds.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:14 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Sure, but what I think Wolfguard is really proposing is something an awful lot like Donatism. We can't align ourselves with the traditors. They're too awful. They're not worthy. It's an a pretty ancient heresy that Wolfguard has latched onto here, not something new and shiny.


There is nothing new under the sun

Though I don't think Wolfguard is making the actual scramental case (I hope) for Donatism.

Exactly right, I'm not. Glad someone was able to use logic and reason over supposition and assumption.

I think this past week with how the kids from Kentucky were treated and unfairly admonished by certain priests and bishops illustrates exactly the problem - we have some bad shepherds who are cow-towing to leftism and the PC police. I find it interesting how some people are quick to throw "heretic" in my direction while enabling people who don't even have the guts to confront people who pass laws to kill babies up to the point of birth. As you said, There is nothing new under the sun.

Who's the heretic, the wolf who tells it like it is or the shepherd who pretends to be a caretaker of his flock while leading the sheep off the cliff? I'm not looking for perfection in priests, I'm looking for people who are true to the values of their vocations to Jesus Christ. It makes little sense to follow someone who is not true to their values, or is supplanting our values with Alinsky-tainted leftism, or answering to a media-driven PC golden calf instead of God.

:?

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:31 am 
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In the: "Watchi'n Paint Dry Dept:

Apparently y'all have painted yourselves into a corner and Pope Francis is in control of the paint shop.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:37 am 
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Wolfguard wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Sure, but what I think Wolfguard is really proposing is something an awful lot like Donatism. We can't align ourselves with the traditors. They're too awful. They're not worthy. It's an a pretty ancient heresy that Wolfguard has latched onto here, not something new and shiny.


There is nothing new under the sun

Though I don't think Wolfguard is making the actual scramental case (I hope) for Donatism.

Exactly right, I'm not. Glad someone was able to use logic and reason over supposition and assumption.

I think this past week with how the kids from Kentucky were treated and unfairly admonished by certain priests and bishops illustrates exactly the problem - we have some bad shepherds who are cow-towing to leftism and the PC police. I find it interesting how some people are quick to throw "heretic" in my direction while enabling people who don't even have the guts to confront people who pass laws to kill babies up to the point of birth. As you said, There is nothing new under the sun.

Who's the heretic, the wolf who tells it like it is or the shepherd who pretends to be a caretaker of his flock while leading the sheep off the cliff? I'm not looking for perfection in priests, I'm looking for people who are true to the values of their vocations to Jesus Christ. It makes little sense to follow someone who is not true to their values, or is supplanting our values with Alinsky-tainted leftism, or answering to a media-driven PC golden calf instead of God.

:?

I didn't say you were a heretic, though you can draw whatever implications you like from my contention that you are endorsing a view that is awfully like the ancient heresy of Donatism. And I'm sure as heck not enabling murderers.

BTW, when you refer to these bad priests as fake priests--and here's a quotation: "Enough with the kid gloves - it's like a mafia ring going on here. In order to save the Church, these fake priests need to be expunged"--you are either (a) using words to mean something other than what they actually mean or (b) saying that these wicked men are not actually priests. So when you mention supposition or assumption, then yes, I did make an assumption. I assumed (b). I typically don't assume (a) when I'm talking to people, because if I did, it would make conversation impossible.

Your last paragraph starts with a false dichotomy, of course. They could both be heretics. But being a heretic doesn't mean one is not a priest.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 12:15 am 
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gherkin wrote:
I didn't say you were a heretic, though you can draw whatever implications you like from my contention that you are endorsing a view that is awfully like the ancient heresy of Donatism.

Well, it's not. Confusion over.

Quote:
...when you refer to these bad priests as fake priests--and here's a quotation: "Enough with the kid gloves - it's like a mafia ring going on here. In order to save the Church, these fake priests need to be expunged"--you are either (a) using words to mean something other than what they actually mean or (b) saying that these wicked men are not actually priests. So when you mention supposition or assumption, then yes, I did make an assumption. I assumed (b). I typically don't assume (a) when I'm talking to people, because if I did, it would make conversation impossible.

Your last paragraph starts with a false dichotomy, of course. They could both be heretics. But being a heretic doesn't mean one is not a priest.

I'm sorry, but literally no good comes from enabling their authority/status as priests nor keeping them. They are not at all real priests for the reason alone that they are destroying people's lives and USING our faith to do it. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." <---- this Commandment is in serious violation by too many who cloak themselves in Catholicism and the position they hold. There is no good which comes from protecting them nor enabling their position. God commands us to do good. The first step here would be removing the authority of those who have used God to do harm.

Enabling evil is evil, and that's it. Allowing an evil person to maintain a title which is suppose to be for good is no less heretical than anything else. If anything it is WORSE since it continues to undermine and erode the faith and trust people have in Catholicism, and Christianity in general. It is a shame and it emboldens and empowers our enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 12:32 am 
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I find this post incoherent. The "not at all real priests" thingy sounds pretty Donatist to me. The priestly character is not lost due to sin, grievous as it may be.

I do not intend to defend evil; my point is that they are "real priests" if they were validly ordained.

Quote:
You're either OK with terrible people leading or your not.

You can be not OK with a terrible person leading and yet not deny the indelible character of the Sacrament of Holy Orders just as you can not be OK with a terrible layman, say, Governor, President, etc and still not deny the indelible character of the Sacrament of baptism.

You have not yet explained what "fake priest" and "not really priest" means, even though you disavow the obvious meaning.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Doom wrote:
For all the talk, early in his pontificate, about his being a reformist Pope, the real truth is that he has been an obstacle to real reform the entire time he has been there. Another example is his scuttling of Pope Benedict's financial reforms of the Vatican Bank, Pope Benedict had authorized a full, independent audit of Vatican finances by Price Waterhouse, and one of the first things Francis did was cancel the audit, 5 years later, still no audit has been performed, and all the financial reforms that were put in place by Benedict in the last 1-2 years of his pontificate, which were aimed at rooting out corruption, ending money laundering and ensuring transparency, have been reversed.

I'm surprised Benedict is even still alive. I recall the story of the pope who died after something like 30 days in office, John Paul I. He was going to do a lot of reforming also but instead he died mysteriously. There were so many "irregularities" in the story of what really happened the night he died that you just KNOW something nefarious was going on (conflicting stories from witnesses, etc). I frankly think his death was also .. shall we say "un-audited" in that investigators into that story were lied to and led on a goose chase.. and/or whatever

God in Heaven knows.. But one thing many of us long-time Catholics know: lots of nefarious stuff going on in the Church (ever since Vat 2 and just prior to Vat 2)


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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:32 pm 
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I suspect you would not have liked the sort of reforms that some expected John Paul I to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
I find this post incoherent. The "not at all real priests" thingy sounds pretty Donatist to me. The priestly character is not lost due to sin, grievous as it may be.

I do not intend to defend evil; my point is that they are "real priests" if they were validly ordained.

Quote:
You're either OK with terrible people leading or your not.

You can be not OK with a terrible person leading and yet not deny the indelible character of the Sacrament of Holy Orders just as you can not be OK with a terrible layman, say, Governor, President, etc and still not deny the indelible character of the Sacrament of baptism.

You have not yet explained what "fake priest" and "not really priest" means, even though you disavow the obvious meaning.

Now I don't have to write a reply to Wolfguard. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:05 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
I'm guessing it's about the (non?) consecration of Russia to our Lady, but I dunno.


Gherkinism again. :verymad:

Actually, St. John Paul II did consecrate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart on March 25, 1984. Sister Lúcia of Jesus has confirmed this. Note that on July 13, 1917 Our Lady of Fatima requested two things: (1) the consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart and (2) Reparation Communions on First Saturdays.

Not enough people are doing her second request. Russia is slowly converted. Religious Liberty is already in Russia. I have seen that myself when I was there.

Russia doesn’t have to be converted to the Catholic religion. It just needs to be changed from spreading evil things to good things. That’s a lot of work because Russia is the largest country in the world.

Anyone going to offer sacrifices for the conversion of sinners?

Prayers for the Holy Father are appreciated especially he is now in Bulgaria and will be in Macedonia soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:56 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Now I don't have to write a reply to Wolfguard. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

So the oppressors can go ahead and ban you. :cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:44 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Now I don't have to write a reply to Wolfguard. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

So the oppressors can go ahead and ban you. :cloud9:

:cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:22 am 
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Wolfguard wrote:
I'm sorry, but literally no good comes from enabling their authority/status as priests nor keeping them. They are not at all real priests for the reason alone that they are destroying people's lives and USING our faith to do it.
So in conclusion: you are endorsing the heresy of Donatism.

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 Post subject: Re: Archbshp claims Pope Francis withdrew sanctions on McCar
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:36 pm 
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lbt wrote:
[qu





Russia doesn’t have to be converted to the Catholic religion.
on.

it would help

but when I myself (can't speak 4 other catholics) say "Catholic faith" I am ALWAYS referring to the true Catholic faith, that which was with us before Vatican 2. I am not syaing the post Vat 2 Church is entirley.. shall we say: without Christ or anything like that, but the pre Vatican 2 Church was way holier


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