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 Post subject: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:36 am 
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I've listened to several of Steve's talks on Martin Luther. It's obvious from Steve's talks and a simple google search that he was a very troubled individual and said and did some very immoral things. (I know that no one ins perfect and there are major sins in the Church, but the Catholic Church has never put it's faith in the revelations of 1 person, besides Jesus Christ).
Is this something that protestants know? I'm curious as to how one spends his/her entire life protestant and thinking Luther had all of the answers and they not know this or reconcile it.


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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Most Protestants don't regard Luther as perfect or as some sort of oracle of truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:15 pm 
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That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just wondering how they live by doctrines like sola fida, which is a doctrine he made up, don’t know any of the awful things he did. Most just believe that he was courageous and took a stand against the bad pope/bishops and got rid of all of the “excess tradition”. I’m
Just wondering how they can follow him and not know who he really was.


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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:40 pm 
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They don't regard themselves as following him. They think that he happened, personality faults notwithstanding, to point out some things that are true. (And there are plenty of Protestants who follow Luther in nothing except rejecting the authority of the pope and general councils.) Catholics tend to make Luther of much more importance to most Protestants than he really is.

A look at Catholic history, BTW, will teach us that doctrines--true doctrines--don't always arise cleanly. There were riots and murders over the divinity of Christ, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:42 pm 
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I’m not here to argue how protestants view Luther. I know many that put him in very high regard. I will try a different thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:44 pm 
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To give a parallel example: Most Episcopalians (which I used to be) are not proud of Henry VIII. They just regard him as God's agent in bringing about reform.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Quote:
I'm curious as to how one spends his/her entire life protestant and thinking Luther had all of the answers and they not know this or reconcile it.
And I'm answering that by saying you are way off base in your approach to understanding how and what Protestants think.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Yes, I got your point, which does not answer my question. Have you listened to Steve Ray’s talks? He says that he saw Luther as a hero, wore a Martin Luther shirt and has bookshelves of books on him. This is what I am referring to. I would love to hear from someone who can answer my initial question.


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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Thread moved to a more appropriate forum. Kt27, do please make another post in Welcomes and Introductions telling us a little about yourself and how you came to visit our little corner of cyberspace.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Kt27 wrote:
Yes, I got your point, which does not answer my question. Have you listened to Steve Ray’s talks? He says that he saw Luther as a hero, wore a Martin Luther shirt and has bookshelves of books on him. This is what I am referring to. I would love to hear from someone who can answer my initial question.

Only Steve Ray can tell you how he came to see Martin Luther as a hero, since the selection of a personal hero is a purely subjective thing. Since your initial question was about general attitudes of Protestants regarding Luther, Fr. Kenobi displayed his usual and customary excellence in answering your question, IMHO, and deserves quite a bit more respect than you’re showing.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Kt27 wrote:
Yes, I got your point, which does not answer my question. Have you listened to Steve Ray’s talks? He says that he saw Luther as a hero, wore a Martin Luther shirt and has bookshelves of books on him. This is what I am referring to. I would love to hear from someone who can answer my initial question.

So the question you are asking is not about Protestants in general (we have a Protestant poster here who will quite rightly tell you that there is no such thing), but about a certain kind of Protestant, which in my experience is quite rare. I don't know if anyone here was a Protestant of that sort, or has experience with them. I hope there is and that whoever it is can give you insight into that mindset. Just bear in mind that the answer you receive will have nothing to do with the vast majority of Protestants you encounter.

I'll go away now.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Kt27 wrote:
I'm curious as to how one spends his/her entire life protestant and thinking Luther had all of the answers and they not know this or reconcile it.
I have a few questions for you:

1. Have you ever met a so-called 'Protestant' who thinks that Luther had all of the answers?

2. What do you mean by 'Protestant,' and why do you think that label is useful?

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:13 pm 
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1). I have met protestants who hold Luther in very high regard and see him and the one who saved the church. I’m not sure why others are telling me that no one feels this way.

2). Why do I use the term “Protestant”?!?! How should I refer to them? Non-catholic Christians?

I found this forum through the Catholic converts website and I’m pretty sure is not what I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:24 pm 
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It is indeed common for evangelicals to cite Luther as a kind of generic 'hero of the faith', without ever actually citing any specific thing he said or did which makes him heroic.

indeed, it is not uncommon to see evangelicals listing all the 'great Christians' over the centuries and say something like 'the Christianity of Saint Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Wycliffe Luther, Calvin etc' In evangelical apologetical works directed against the so-called 'cults', it is not unusual to see a rhetorical flourish like 'if you believe Joseph Smith was right, then by necessity, you must believe that for 1800 years, Christianity was completely extinct and that great Christians like Augustine, Aquinas, Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Edwards (etc etc etc listing various 'great theologians' through the years) were all wrong and that Joseph Smith alone was right.' I've seen sentences like this in the works of several different evangelical apologists, the exact names on the list vary from one author to the next, but Luther is always listed, usually right after Aquinas or Augustine, as if Luther is their equal.

When I was an evangelical, I myself noted the tendency of evangelical 'summaries' of church history to jump directly from the Fathers of the Church to Luther, as if nothing happened in the meantime. This is something that bothered me for years.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:27 pm 
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THANK YOU!!! That’s what I was looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:08 pm 
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SIDEBAR. While Martin Luther (1483-1546) did (ca. 1522) insert the word “alone” into Roman’s 3:28, it is worth noting that subsequent English translations did not follow Luther in doing this. Not Tyndale (ca. 1534), not Coverdale (1535), not the Great Bible (1539) not the Geneva Bible (1599), and not the King James Bible (1611).

I don’t know if Luther’s Romans work was unknown to these English translators, or if they deemed his work on this verse not up to their standards. In any event - as far as printed English bibles go – Luther got zero traction on this verse.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:35 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:


I don’t know if Luther’s Romans work was unknown to these English translators.


Of course, they knew about Luther's work, Luther's translation was the direct inspiration for their own! FWIW, Tyndale defended Luther's insertion of the word 'alone'

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Kt27 wrote:

I found this forum through the Catholic converts website and I’m pretty sure is not what I thought.


This is what is commonly known as The Catholic Convert board, previously owned by Steve Ray. It can be a great help to you, but your question may not be answerable in the form in which it was asked. Steve started this board, and we have always maintained his vision of this ministry.

I was a Southern Baptist for 42 years. Martin Luther was never mentioned. The only time I ever heard of him back then was what we learned in high school history class. Steve Ray was raised Baptist, and had the opposite experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Kt27 wrote:
Yes, I got your point, which does not answer my question. Have you listened to Steve Ray’s talks? He says that he saw Luther as a hero, wore a Martin Luther shirt and has bookshelves of books on him. This is what I am referring to. I would love to hear from someone who can answer my initial question.

So the question you are asking is not about Protestants in general (we have a Protestant poster here who will quite rightly tell you that there is no such thing), but about a certain kind of Protestant, which in my experience is quite rare. I don't know if anyone here was a Protestant of that sort, or has experience with them. I hope there is and that whoever it is can give you insight into that mindset. Just bear in mind that the answer you receive will have nothing to do with the vast majority of Protestants you encounter.

I'll go away now.


That couldn't be me, but I agree with your observation.

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 Post subject: Re: Luther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
To give a parallel example: Most Episcopalians (which I used to be) are not proud of Henry VIII. They just regard him as God's agent in bringing about reform.


Really? Odd birds, them Episcopalians.

Fascinating train wreck, old Hank.

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